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Offline Thorgrim  
#81 Posted : 19 May 2010 02:46:52(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
If you want awesome totalitarian US laws, check this one McCain & Lieberman want to pass: http://www.salon.com/new...03/17/torture/index.html


I doubt it came through Congress, as the article was published in March and this is the first I've heard of it.
Offline maximys  
#82 Posted : 21 May 2010 10:55:31(UTC)
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The bill says over and over again that a cop can't discriminate becaus of race and the person must have been arrested for something else before.
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Offline forkboy  
#83 Posted : 21 May 2010 11:06:00(UTC)
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maximys wrote:
The bill says over and over again that a cop can't discriminate becaus of race and the person must have been arrested for something else before.

You don't know what someones criminal record is just by looking at them though, that's kinda the issue here. It essentially comes down to racial profiling. You look Latino, then you look like you could have come from Mexico illegally. And in a supposedly free country I'm pretty uncomfy with the idea of racial profiling.
Offline maximys  
#84 Posted : 21 May 2010 11:26:27(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
maximys wrote:
The bill says over and over again that a cop can't discriminate becaus of race and the person must have been arrested for something else before.

You don't know what someones criminal record is just by looking at them though, that's kinda the issue here. It essentially comes down to racial profiling. You look Latino, then you look like you could have come from Mexico illegally. And in a supposedly free country I'm pretty uncomfy with the idea of racial profiling.


A cop is not just gonna look at someone and decide if they have done a crime before. That same cop would of had to had an incident with the person before.
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Offline Paradox  
#85 Posted : 21 May 2010 11:37:05(UTC)
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maximys wrote:
forkboy wrote:
maximys wrote:
The bill says over and over again that a cop can't discriminate becaus of race and the person must have been arrested for something else before.

You don't know what someones criminal record is just by looking at them though, that's kinda the issue here. It essentially comes down to racial profiling. You look Latino, then you look like you could have come from Mexico illegally. And in a supposedly free country I'm pretty uncomfy with the idea of racial profiling.


A cop is not just gonna look at someone and decide if they have done a crime before. That same cop would of had to had an incident with the person before.


I think it would be pretty damn tough for cops to remember everyone they've had an incident with,
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Offline Captain Insano  
#86 Posted : 21 May 2010 23:34:11(UTC)
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maximys wrote:
forkboy wrote:
maximys wrote:
The bill says over and over again that a cop can't discriminate becaus of race and the person must have been arrested for something else before.

You don't know what someones criminal record is just by looking at them though, that's kinda the issue here. It essentially comes down to racial profiling. You look Latino, then you look like you could have come from Mexico illegally. And in a supposedly free country I'm pretty uncomfy with the idea of racial profiling.


A cop is not just gonna look at someone and decide if they have done a crime before. That same cop would of had to had an incident with the person before.


You sure about that? There are some pretty prejudiced cops walk around who would have no problems doing a spot of racial profiling.
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Offline sharinganerror  
#87 Posted : 18 August 2010 18:47:51(UTC)
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I was all for it until it got overturned President O-Fuck You-bama

Now why should it matter that police would have the right to be suspicious of a hispanic citizen who might be illegal?
There's no good reason to be against, unless you're hiding something, like the fact that you're an illegal immigrant.

Simple solution: They flag you down ask for you I.D., green card, whatever.. if it's legit they won't bother you. Another thing to prove your authenticity is your spoken language.
What is our country's supposed national language? Spanish! WRONG. SO FUCKING WRONG. It's English, so fucking speak it while you live here. American citizens should have never had a reason to fucking learn a second language other than English if they planned on living here for the rest of their lives. Then the arrogant Immigrants came, who wanted to "preserve their culture". Go preserve you fucking culture in your home country you asshole. This is America, culture is another bullshit dream you can only talk about before you arrive here(look at what happened to the Indians when us white folk came). I despise any business that prides themselves in their "se habla espanol" taglines, it's just breeding more tolerance for the masses to allow more cultural distortion. It used to be that 50 years ago, Blacks, Whites, Hispanics all acted, spoke, dressed, and did the same shit then with no problems. Now look at we have, as the generations passed, so did their respect for our country's way of life(or any really for that matter).

Racial Profiling? Get over yourself, it's your own damn race's fault for it reputation. If the majority of your people hadn't done the shit you're known for, then it wouldn't be a problem. You need to realize that the only way they'll think differently is by the entirety of your race to prove them otherwise. Yeah, not gonna happen.

Nobody gives a shit anymore, and I hate it. This bill was the only hope I really had in local government until some greedy fuckers dropped the hammer.
Offline Rincewind  
#88 Posted : 18 August 2010 18:52:11(UTC)
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you are aware that some of the southern states used to be owned by the spanish and french goverments and that they still have a strong culture alive there today including their own language?
I hate it when people see me at the supermarket and they are like:
Hey, what are you doing here?
and im just like:
Oh you know, hunting elephants
Offline sharinganerror  
#89 Posted : 18 August 2010 19:03:51(UTC)
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Rincewind wrote:
you are aware that some of the southern states used to be owned by the spanish and french goverments and that they still have a strong culture alive there today including their own language?

Apart from not mentioning it, did I ever say I liked it? I happen to be friends with people from texas and louisianna and notice that the culture only is aesthetic for the most part and only for the sake of entertainment purposes. Seriously, not much else happens there except for that.
Offline Rincewind  
#90 Posted : 18 August 2010 21:24:52(UTC)
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i find it incredibly funny that states like california were founded by spain, filled full of latino's and then when it gets sold to the USA people act like all the latino's there are illegal immigrants when for a lot of them their families have been there a lot longer.....
I hate it when people see me at the supermarket and they are like:
Hey, what are you doing here?
and im just like:
Oh you know, hunting elephants
Offline forkboy  
#91 Posted : 19 August 2010 03:09:34(UTC)
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sharinganerror wrote:
Now why should it matter that police would have the right to be suspicious of a hispanic citizen who might be illegal?
There's no good reason to be against, unless you're hiding something, like the fact that you're an illegal immigrant.

Well speaking as a caucasian who would have absolutely no trouble with the law, I can see a perfectly valid reason to be against it. Racial profiling is utterly unacceptable in a liberal (not in the American sense of the word) democracy. I am white, so should I be punished for the sins of my race? They are many after all. Fuck off should I.
Offline Gildermershina  
#92 Posted : 19 August 2010 08:50:22(UTC)
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sharinganerror wrote:
I was all for it until it got overturned President O-Fuck You-bama

Now why should it matter that police would have the right to be suspicious of a hispanic citizen who might be illegal?
There's no good reason to be against, unless you're hiding something, like the fact that you're an illegal immigrant.


So given your strong support of this particular policy, what's your take on the US Constitution? Are you for it, against it? Because as far as I can tell this policy directly contradicts it.

How about civil liberties? For example, where you don't have to walk around with ID at all times or else risk arrest? Is catching a very small minority of illegal immigrants more important than the personal freedoms of the majority of legitimate US citizens?
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Offline forkboy  
#93 Posted : 19 August 2010 08:58:25(UTC)
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"ID cards for every minority, so long as I'm in the majority" is the jist of what he's saying. I mean you know "I despise any business that prides themselves in their "se habla espanol" taglines, it's just breeding more tolerance"...Totally. Tolerance, what a bad thing.
Offline sharinganerror  
#94 Posted : 20 August 2010 15:26:37(UTC)
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Gildermershina wrote:
sharinganerror wrote:
I was all for it until it got overturned President O-Fuck You-bama

Now why should it matter that police would have the right to be suspicious of a hispanic citizen who might be illegal?
There's no good reason to be against, unless you're hiding something, like the fact that you're an illegal immigrant.


So given your strong support of this particular policy, what's your take on the US Constitution? Are you for it, against it? Because as far as I can tell this policy directly contradicts it.

How about civil liberties? For example, where you don't have to walk around with ID at all times or else risk arrest? Is catching a very small minority of illegal immigrants more important than the personal freedoms of the majority of legitimate US citizens?

<implying the U.S. Constitution still matters to Congress> On terms of always wearing ID, over here the idea of not having your ID on hand is extremely stupid. So many more things require it than that which doesn't. Heard of identity theft? Yeah photo ID's practically the only way you can physically prove who you are here now, seeing as a text-only ID will warrant suspicion regardless of the situation. Nobody would honestly complain about that matter. Another thing, the entire state fucking passed it and then some assholes felt like dabbing their shitty fingers in the pot and overturned it.

Now onto the actual bill: Some would argue that it contradicts the 4th by violating supposed protection from 'unreasonable search and seizure' but that simply isn't the case. It has a reason, to stop them from illegally crossing our borders, no matter how you try to twist it. Now dark skin and an accent are no reason to be suspicious and it rarely causes local authority to raise an eyebrow, it's really the language they're speaking and their inability to use our Nation's de facto language, English.

Now onto the 14th amendment violation argument, supposedly contradicting "equal protection under the law". Now all I can for this is that it's only true for when we have idiot cops who shoot first and ask questions later. Really, if we didn't have ridiculously useless law enforcement over here, I might've had a chance to prove this contradiction wrong.

Now finally civil liberties, what crap have you been on lately? Us citizens have shit for rights, plain and simple. Rights are nothing but a dream here.
Offline sharinganerror  
#95 Posted : 20 August 2010 15:27:46(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
"ID cards for every minority, so long as I'm in the majority" is the jist of what he's saying. I mean you know "I despise any business that prides themselves in their "se habla espanol" taglines, it's just breeding more tolerance"...Totally. Tolerance, what a bad thing.

Tolerance breeds ignorance and vice-versa. I'd rather someone be pissed off at my behavior than just ignore it, or worse... support it.
Offline Gildermershina  
#96 Posted : 21 August 2010 01:54:28(UTC)
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sharinganerror wrote:
Now finally civil liberties, what crap have you been on lately? Us citizens have shit for rights, plain and simple. Rights are nothing but a dream here.


Well fuck you if you honestly think that. If that's what you believe, then your ignorance is genuinely breathtaking. Given the human rights violations that have occurred, and continue to occur around the world, it's just offensive to suggest that living in the United States is any comparison whatsoever. Obviously you take everything you have for granted.

I honestly don't have a clue where you're coming from on this. Apparently you hate that any part of government can step in to protect the US Constitution and the rights of US Citizens, because it somehow violates your right to pass legislation to the opposite effect, and yet you somehow believe that US Citizens have no rights? How does that make any sense? The system of government in the US, flawed and corrupt though it may be, still affords citizens all manner of rights.

If your concern is the damage that illegal immigrants do to the US, maybe that's more a concern of an unregulated free market which will hire these illegals because they will do shitty jobs for very little money. Not to mention the fact that these people basically can't use public services for fear of being captured. Illegal immigrants are in fact a vital component of the US economy at large. The fact that they don't use public services offsets their not paying taxes, plus they will work in really terrible jobs that Americans would not want to do, and are paid less than Americans would be. There are social concerns obviously, but it is in no way as simple as "Illegal immigrants are BAD." Such thinking is woefully naive.

sharinganerror wrote:
Tolerance breeds ignorance and vice-versa. I'd rather someone be pissed off at my behavior than just ignore it, or worse... support it.


Tolerance breeds ignorance? I'm pretty sure nobody has ever said that. Because it's utterly fucking absurd and the exact opposite of reality.
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Offline forkboy  
#97 Posted : 21 August 2010 04:24:42(UTC)
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sharinganerror wrote:

Tolerance breeds ignorance and vice-versa. I'd rather someone be pissed off at my behavior than just ignore it, or worse... support it.

You've got that quote slightly wrong. INtolerance breeds ignorance and vice-versa. And together they breed fear.

Also, a state is only part of a federation. It's laws may not break the laws of the federation. Arizona's law on racial profiling did. Simple.
Offline sharinganerror  
#98 Posted : 25 August 2010 09:39:49(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
sharinganerror wrote:

Tolerance breeds ignorance and vice-versa. I'd rather someone be pissed off at my behavior than just ignore it, or worse... support it.

You've got that quote slightly wrong. INtolerance breeds ignorance and vice-versa. And together they breed fear.

Also, a state is only part of a federation. It's laws may not break the laws of the federation. Arizona's law on racial profiling did. Simple.

I'd still have to disagree with you on that, it's tolerance that leads people to accept what they believe is wrong in favor of the imposed disapprovement they assume would be recognized. Then that leads them to be usually unaware of the support that their acceptance has gained for what they were against. Example: the American public against the Iraq war, we all were against it, but tolerated it and that allowed the U.S. government to prolong the "insurgence" while gaining nothing but filled caskets and horrendous Middle Eastern relations for a decade now. Now the combination? It breeds apathy, not fear. Where the fuck would you even get that notion? It's tolerance that subdues our pain, our rage, the truth in our emotion, and gives a false sense of pride in the fact that you're going against your own beliefs and still think you're a better person.

Then if our our own federal government won't do shit for our borders when it comes to legislation, then America as a seperate country already lost, we're now just an extension of Mexico.

Edited by user 25 August 2010 09:41:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline forkboy  
#99 Posted : 25 August 2010 09:51:27(UTC)
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No, see, I'm a really fucking tolerant guy. (Well, up to a point. I'm utterly in tolerant towards religious fundamentalists of all persuasions, racist fucks and people who support unbridled and unregulated free markets) But I'm also someone who is absolute in my convictions. It's that old line of Voltaire (I think?), I disagree with your viewpoint sir, but I will defend your right to have that viewpoint. That's what tolerance is.

But incidentally, I wasn't referring to tolerating governments. Despite being someone who favours much state intervention, especially in economics, I believe that is the obligation of the citizens of a democracy to question every little thing their government does. Power leads to corruption and the only way to have any control that is to constantly remind politicians that they serve us, not the other way round. They must be held accountable and not given a free ride. The problem is that politics is far too partisan. Especially in America, but in the UK we have similar problems to a certain degree. People feel a tribal loyalty to defend "their" party, even if they don't neccessarily agree with what they are trying to pull. It's a terrible system, I'm fundamentally opposed to party politics.

But no, when I refer to tolerance, I mean tolerance to my fellow man. We're coming at that from differing angles.
Offline sharinganerror  
#100 Posted : 25 August 2010 10:09:38(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
No, see, I'm a really fucking tolerant guy. (Well, up to a point. I'm utterly in tolerant towards religious fundamentalists of all persuasions, racist fucks and people who support unbridled and unregulated free markets) But I'm also someone who is absolute in my convictions. It's that old line of Voltaire (I think?), I disagree with your viewpoint sir, but I will defend your right to have that viewpoint. That's what tolerance is.

But incidentally, I wasn't referring to tolerating governments. Despite being someone who favours much state intervention, especially in economics, I believe that is the obligation of the citizens of a democracy to question every little thing their government does. Power leads to corruption and the only way to have any control that is to constantly remind politicians that they serve us, not the other way round. They must be held accountable and not given a free ride. The problem is that politics is far too partisan. Especially in America, but in the UK we have similar problems to a certain degree. People feel a tribal loyalty to defend "their" party, even if they don't neccessarily agree with what they are trying to pull. It's a terrible system, I'm fundamentally opposed to party politics.

But no, when I refer to tolerance, I mean tolerance to my fellow man. We're coming at that from differing angles.

Yeah, sorry bout the different angle, I was posting in two different threads at the same time.
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