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Offline Captain Insano  
#41 Posted : 09 June 2009 13:39:20(UTC)
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Yep, well they have certainly shown the Middle East a thing or two eh?
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Offline Raphaela  
#42 Posted : 09 June 2009 13:41:46(UTC)
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Chimp Records wrote:
Raphaela wrote:
The US were after oil...


Exactly. They wanted to get the oil. Life is survival. They fought to get the oil for themselves. Bam! Sign of power and dominance.


People still think Neoimperialism is right?
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Offline Chimp Records  
#43 Posted : 09 June 2009 13:44:37(UTC)
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Raphaela wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Raphaela wrote:
The US were after oil...


Exactly. They wanted to get the oil. Life is survival. They fought to get the oil for themselves. Bam! Sign of power and dominance.


People still think Neoimperialism is right?


Honestly, I believe that we (mankind I mean) are all just too stupid to work together. We are all just hogs. We are greedy and we can't seem to find a negotiation that suits everyone. Well, this is the only method that we use that seems to work unfortunately.
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Offline forkboy  
#44 Posted : 09 June 2009 13:48:02(UTC)
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Chimp Records wrote:
US can't normalize it right now. They should just try invading Cuba again. Cold War's over. The Russians aren't in Cuba to make something like the Bay of Pigs or a missile crisis to happen again. I don't care about those anti-war liberals. They can all burn in hell for all I care. It's sad, but war seems to be the only answer to solve things nowadays.

OK. There is a basic law in physics. It's called Newton's Third Law of Motion. "For every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction."

To put this into terms you will hopefully understand, when you do something, something else happens back. When you push a swing, it goes forward. And then it swings backwards. And forward again. And so on. Exciting, no?

Now lets move into the realm that you are talking about, the sphere of international relations and geopolitics. Things are complex. Because we aren't actually dealing with abstract concepts, at the end of the day you are talking about acts which could involve actual human beings actually dying. Because real-life is a little bit different from video games: we only get one life. Die and that is it, in a nutshell. Ending the life of even one person is quite a big deal, which is why murder tends to be dealt with either life imprisonment or the death penalty. It's one of those really big taboos that kind of pervades throughout every single country & culture in the world: life is sacred.

OK, so now I've tried explai some of the basic facts of life for you. So try this. "US can't normalize it [relations] now" says you. Says I: "Why not?" OK, dwell on that for a while and then answer me.

"They should just try invading Cuba again." This is the point where I found it hard to take you seriously. In that I laughed. Loudly. But you seem pretty ignorant of reality so I guess it would be unfair of me to just point and laugh at the ignorant, so I'll try make you think a little about what you've said. Why exactly would the United States of America invade Cuba? Generally in the past 1000 years or so, before going to war with another state there tends to be a casss belli. It's a Latin phrase that works out as the case for war, essentially it means the justification for going to war. Eg in 1990 the United States casus belli against Iraq was that they invaded a friendly nation, Kuwait, and so they declared war on Iraq to defend their ally. In 2003, the Coalition of the Willing invaded Iraq with the justification of stopping Iraq from stockpiling large amounts of WMDs that they could then sell on to Islamic fundamentalists (this obviously ignores the sectarian conflicts within Islam, ie the relatively secular Ba'ath Party and the militant Islamists of Al Qaeda who had little love lost between them). This changed after time to, at various points in time, installing a democratic regime, and stopping terrorism in Iraq. And then there was the unsaid justification of protecting or taking control of the Iraqi oil fields.

I fail to see where the casus belli is for Cuba. Introducing democracy? Well, in theory, but really they are 10 years too late. Essentially since Fidel Castro stepped down there has been a slow and gradual liberalisation of Cuba, & I imagine in a few years time (a decade or so), Cuba will be heading the same sort of direction as China, a mix of laizee-faire economics and one-party state. The worst of both worlds (capitalist & socialist respectively) as I like to call it. It could even end up going the root that the Soviet Union took, with a period of perestroika before you have genuine free elections. But yeah, I'm fascinated as to what the justification for going to war with Cuba is right now. The political justification is feeble at best, there will be no great economic rewards, and it will have horrendous harm towards relations with many other Latin American nations.

That doesn't even begin to deal with the cold-hard fact that for the unrivalled military might of the United States armed forces, a large part their forces are the best in the world is because they are a volunteer service. And the down-side with a volunteer military is numbers. With troops stationed in Iraq, Afgahnistan and bugger knows where else in the globe right now, the US military is at stretching point, especially the Army. They just do not have the numbers to effectively deal with another conflict. They could bring back conscription, but then the worlds greatest and most advanced army was beaten the last time it's troops fought a war as a conscript army.

I don't think they would lose in Cuba. But in this age of the 24 hour news cycle I don't think they would actually "win" either, the numbers of dead soldiers would be far too high to be acceptable to the American public.
Offline forkboy  
#45 Posted : 09 June 2009 13:55:28(UTC)
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Chimp Records wrote:
Honestly, that theory hasn't change. We think that us humans are more civilized now, but we aren't. Lemme give you a modern example. The Iraq War. The Us and several other nations, mostly under the command of the US, went into Iraq. Why? Because they wanted to end the oppression in the country, stop a major headquarters of terrorism, and to put fear into the middle east to give the things that the US wanted. That was a show of dominance. The US wanted the Iraqis and middle easterners to do what the US wanted them to do with, which was to be democratic and supportive to the US decisions and operations. Now, explain how that is not an example of war not being a sign of dominance and power.

Because international relations (and human beings) are not that straight forward. Yes, America wanted to install a democratic regime in America. It wanted to secure a large chunk of middle eastern oil supplies. But there's also the fact that junior wanted to do what daddy couldn't. The administration wanted to secure contracts for American business. Many other reasons.

Perhaps it was in part showing off their military muscles. But that's kind of failed, because even as I, an amateur with an interest in politics, could tell, Iraq was heading towards a very harsh period of religious insurgency. They rolled over the incumbent government with little problem, but what's been uncovered is frankly a mess. It's even more shambolic in Afgahnistan. I don't think their show of dominance was all that effective, all it has done is made more and more Muslims militantly anti-West, and more and more likely to join militias, become suicide bombers, in essence they have done a huge PR campaign for Al Qaeda, for very little cost.

Also as an aside, Iraq was not a major headquarter for Islamic fundamentalism until after the 2003 invasion. Saddam was perfectly capable of putting down dissenters like those.
Offline forkboy  
#46 Posted : 09 June 2009 13:56:38(UTC)
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Chimp Records wrote:

Honestly, I believe that we (mankind I mean) are all just too stupid to work together. We are all just hogs. We are greedy and we can't seem to find a negotiation that suits everyone. Well, this is the only method that we use that seems to work unfortunately.

I'm interested. A) How old are you?
B) Where are you actually from?
Offline old.gregg  
#47 Posted : 10 June 2009 05:03:58(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:

Honestly, I believe that we (mankind I mean) are all just too stupid to work together. We are all just hogs. We are greedy and we can't seem to find a negotiation that suits everyone. Well, this is the only method that we use that seems to work unfortunately.

I'm interested. A) How old are you?
B) Where are you actually from?


I don't know - but he's proving his point quite well. If we were all like him, mankind would be pretty damn stupid..
-
Offline forkboy  
#48 Posted : 10 June 2009 05:34:56(UTC)
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Fortunately, even as much of a misanthrope as I am, know that humanity isn't quite that idiotic.
Offline Chimp Records  
#49 Posted : 10 June 2009 08:14:53(UTC)
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Alright, I might've explained it wrong. When it comes to coordination and cooperation, we are silly. Yes, we formed nations and we have cooperated well within it with economies. The world is more civilized now. However, getting here was hard. Still, wars occur. War is an argument. And if you are stronger, than you have won the argument, showing that your side is more dominant and things will go your way. Fortunately, we will soon all be one. But some of those who disagree with the policies of the new world order are taking violent approaches.
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Offline Chimp Records  
#50 Posted : 10 June 2009 08:19:36(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Honestly, that theory hasn't change. We think that us humans are more civilized now, but we aren't. Lemme give you a modern example. The Iraq War. The Us and several other nations, mostly under the command of the US, went into Iraq. Why? Because they wanted to end the oppression in the country, stop a major headquarters of terrorism, and to put fear into the middle east to give the things that the US wanted. That was a show of dominance. The US wanted the Iraqis and middle easterners to do what the US wanted them to do with, which was to be democratic and supportive to the US decisions and operations. Now, explain how that is not an example of war not being a sign of dominance and power.

Because international relations (and human beings) are not that straight forward. Yes, America wanted to install a democratic regime in America. It wanted to secure a large chunk of middle eastern oil supplies. But there's also the fact that junior wanted to do what daddy couldn't. The administration wanted to secure contracts for American business. Many other reasons.

Perhaps it was in part showing off their military muscles. But that's kind of failed, because even as I, an amateur with an interest in politics, could tell, Iraq was heading towards a very harsh period of religious insurgency. They rolled over the incumbent government with little problem, but what's been uncovered is frankly a mess. It's even more shambolic in Afgahnistan. I don't think their show of dominance was all that effective, all it has done is made more and more Muslims militantly anti-West, and more and more likely to join militias, become suicide bombers, in essence they have done a huge PR campaign for Al Qaeda, for very little cost.

Also as an aside, Iraq was not a major headquarter for Islamic fundamentalism until after the 2003 invasion. Saddam was perfectly capable of putting down dissenters like those.


They invaded because they saw that Iraq was having an inner problem. The US, as the balls they got, went in there to secure things. That was also a sign to other nations that the US will go into your country if they want to. That is a sign of dominance. Also, the US wanted to go into Iraq. Completely their choice. Also sign of power that they are saying that they have the right to do that when really they just things their way.
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Offline forkboy  
#51 Posted : 10 June 2009 08:34:24(UTC)
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Ah, conspiracy nut. Says it all.

At least I don't have to feel compelled to waste my time writing long winded rebuttals of drivel as you are clearly long since lost from the rational world.
Offline Captain Insano  
#52 Posted : 10 June 2009 10:46:52(UTC)
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I guess that 'inner problem' was Iraq having all the oil and the US didnt...at the end of the day it doesnt give them 'the right' to march in where ever the fuck they feel like it just because its their choice.
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Offline Chimp Records  
#53 Posted : 10 June 2009 12:10:30(UTC)
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Captain Insano wrote:
I guess that 'inner problem' was Iraq having all the oil and the US didnt...at the end of the day it doesnt give them 'the right' to march in where ever the fuck they feel like it just because its their choice.


Exactly. Their choice is their "right". Ah, get it. lol
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