logo
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

4 Pages<1234>
Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline cam  
#21 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:16:41(UTC)
cam
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 159
Location: Glasgow

Marxism is a very authoritarian form of government. And I'm not going solely on the examples given to us in the 20th century.

The first real example that shows Marx own authoritarian streak would be the International Working Men's Association, an international socialist organisation founded in the 1860s, and the way he and his supporters essentially booted out the anarchist wing under Baukinin.

And of course, the USSR was founded with the idea that Lenin & friends would lead a dictatorship of the proletariat to stop counter-revolutionaries from perverting the revolution, but eventually the state would wither away, as was suggested by Marx himself. Marxists call an anarchists naive. Well yes, but belief that a massive buearacracy would suddenly give up it's power because it would be for the greater good is far, far, far, far easier to distort than merely moving straight to a stateless society. Not that anarchism is short of faults its self. but this idea that Marx would have been appalled by Lenin's Soviet Union, I'm not so sure. He would have been by Stalin & Mao (especially the latter!), but that's simply because they were appalling human beings more so than anything else.

And chimp, that was, to use a Marxist term "socialism" as opposed to communism. Communism is the enlightened stage where the state can wither away, we no longer need money and just things for the common good.
The artist formerly known as forkboy


UserPostedImage
Offline Chimp Records  
#22 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:18:28(UTC)
Chimp Records
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 680
Location: Manchester

Well, still, it doesn't seem too bad of a system, just the fact of no democracy is a problem.

btw, strange how this thread turned into a conversation about communism.
UserPostedImage UserPostedImage
Artists Signed To Chimp Records:

Moonwalkers
Raven
Meta
Lycant
Delirium
Eclipse
MC Donalds

Offline Aj  
#23 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:22:27(UTC)
Aj
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 16/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,543
Man
Location: Jamaica

Thanks: 27 times
Was thanked: 34 time(s) in 28 post(s)
cam wrote:
Marxism is a very authoritarian form of government. And I'm not going solely on the examples given to us in the 20th century.

The first real example that shows Marx own authoritarian streak would be the International Working Men's Association, an international socialist organisation founded in the 1860s, and the way he and his supporters essentially booted out the anarchist wing under Baukinin.

And of course, the USSR was founded with the idea that Lenin & friends would lead a dictatorship of the proletariat to stop counter-revolutionaries from perverting the revolution, but eventually the state would wither away, as was suggested by Marx himself. Marxists call an anarchists naive. Well yes, but belief that a massive buearacracy would suddenly give up it's power because it would be for the greater good is far, far, far, far easier to distort than merely moving straight to a stateless society. Not that anarchism is short of faults its self. but this idea that Marx would have been appalled by Lenin's Soviet Union, I'm not so sure. He would have been by Stalin & Mao (especially the latter!), but that's simply because they were appalling human beings more so than anything else.

And chimp, that was, to use a Marxist term "socialism" as opposed to communism. Communism is the enlightened stage where the state can wither away, we no longer need money and just things for the common good.


You are annoyingly intelligent.

Thats the reason i think its impratical, because all communist governments have gone to shit, and ended up being no better or worse than their opposing side, as was seen with Hitler and Stalin.
Offline cam  
#24 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:22:41(UTC)
cam
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 159
Location: Glasgow

Chimp Records wrote:
Well, still, it doesn't seem too bad of a system, just the fact of no democracy is a problem.

btw, strange how this thread turned into a conversation about communism.

Democracy is REALLY over-rated.

I mean there are aspects of it which are obviously good, but the problems are so many as to not both listing them. The problem is that people act like democracy is the be all and end all of political ideologies.
The artist formerly known as forkboy


UserPostedImage
Offline Chimp Records  
#25 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:23:56(UTC)
Chimp Records
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 680
Location: Manchester

cam wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Well, still, it doesn't seem too bad of a system, just the fact of no democracy is a problem.

btw, strange how this thread turned into a conversation about communism.

Democracy is REALLY over-rated.

I mean there are aspects of it which are obviously good, but the problems are so many as to not both listing them. The problem is that people act like democracy is the be all and end all of political ideologies.


People have needs, and a democratic society fulfills them best. I do believe that a socialist society would better advance, but people have needs that can't be fulfilled in that sort of society.
UserPostedImage UserPostedImage
Artists Signed To Chimp Records:

Moonwalkers
Raven
Meta
Lycant
Delirium
Eclipse
MC Donalds

Offline iamlewismason  
#26 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:24:11(UTC)
iamlewismason
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 25/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 91
Man
Location: UK

It's the "storybook happy ending" of ideologies because in the short term everyone skips merrily under the rainbow...
blonde.bombshell!

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Since when is Lewis a gangsta?


Are you kidding?

Lewis has been robbing motherfuckers since the slave ships with the same clip and the same .45, two point black a motherfucker's sure to die...

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
I thought gay people were supposed to be nice lol.

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
[Elliot: Tehehehe Lewis are James Blunt.] Coincidence? Lewis Mason - 1973

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Lewis Mason is not a made up character. He is a god like entity.


UserPostedImage
Offline Chimp Records  
#27 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:24:59(UTC)
Chimp Records
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 680
Location: Manchester

iamlewismason wrote:
It's the "storybook happy ending" of ideologies because in the short term everyone skips merrily under the rainbow...


Well certainly not in the near future.
UserPostedImage UserPostedImage
Artists Signed To Chimp Records:

Moonwalkers
Raven
Meta
Lycant
Delirium
Eclipse
MC Donalds

Offline Chimp Records  
#28 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:28:19(UTC)
Chimp Records
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 680
Location: Manchester

Also, I don't really believe this but I heard that Lenin was gay or something.
UserPostedImage UserPostedImage
Artists Signed To Chimp Records:

Moonwalkers
Raven
Meta
Lycant
Delirium
Eclipse
MC Donalds

Offline Aj  
#29 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:28:37(UTC)
Aj
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 16/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,543
Man
Location: Jamaica

Thanks: 27 times
Was thanked: 34 time(s) in 28 post(s)
cam wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Well, still, it doesn't seem too bad of a system, just the fact of no democracy is a problem.

btw, strange how this thread turned into a conversation about communism.

Democracy is REALLY over-rated.

I mean there are aspects of it which are obviously good, but the problems are so many as to not both listing them. The problem is that people act like democracy is the be all and end all of political ideologies.


You can never have perfect democracy, there will always be someone who will want to get one over on someone else and will therefore change things towards their benifits in some way or another without the approval of the wider community. On paper, we should be able to get rid of Gordan Brown and call for an election, could we not ? (thats a question).
Offline cam  
#30 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:29:47(UTC)
cam
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 159
Location: Glasgow

iamlewismason wrote:
It's the "storybook happy ending" of ideologies because in the short term everyone skips merrily under the rainbow...

You say this, but eh, every ideolegy is to some degree or another idealistic. Anarchists in their faith that people will just be good without laws and so forth. Communists in their belief that the people in charge would actually relinquish their grasp on power, democracy in that with freedom of speech and action people will become empowered, and they will have an equal chance at success, or even in fascism and their belief that a strong leader, and strong national identity will strengthen the nation as a whole and make it better for it's citizens.
The artist formerly known as forkboy


UserPostedImage
Offline Lepelbos  
#31 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:35:35(UTC)
Lepelbos
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 22/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,196
Location: Den Haag

Chimp Records wrote:
Raphaela wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Well communism does give everyone a roof over their heads and food on the table, but so many laws, and no freedom of speech.


That's what was put into action, Karl Marx never said anything about denying freedom of speech.
I suggest reading the Manifesto, clears your mind about it.


I agree. Karl Marx was a great philosopher, but communism isn't a loose form of government. It has to be strong and strict in order for equality amongst all to work. The system is like a stock share where everyone has the same amount. If the economy falls, everyone loses money, if it rises, everyone gains money, but only the same amount. No one loses jobs because everyone works for pennies. lol.


Get out of here. Communism is as bad as Fascism. Its the same. Look at Chavez. He started a totalitarian system all over again. Pol Pot, Stalin, China, Cuba, South Korea, DDR. Poland. The Chauchescu's. All examples of failed experiments and massmurders. Stalin killed more than Hitler. Even the lefties during the Spanish Civil War who fought against Franco were not better than the fascists. And apart of this: this so called communist system doesnt work, it leads to mass corruption and always to a secret police.
B O S L E P E L R E C O R D S
NEW ALBUMS

UserPostedImageUserPostedImageUserPostedImageUserPostedImage
Offline Aj  
#32 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:41:30(UTC)
Aj
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 16/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,543
Man
Location: Jamaica

Thanks: 27 times
Was thanked: 34 time(s) in 28 post(s)
Lepelbos wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Raphaela wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Well communism does give everyone a roof over their heads and food on the table, but so many laws, and no freedom of speech.


That's what was put into action, Karl Marx never said anything about denying freedom of speech.
I suggest reading the Manifesto, clears your mind about it.


I agree. Karl Marx was a great philosopher, but communism isn't a loose form of government. It has to be strong and strict in order for equality amongst all to work. The system is like a stock share where everyone has the same amount. If the economy falls, everyone loses money, if it rises, everyone gains money, but only the same amount. No one loses jobs because everyone works for pennies. lol.


Get out of here. Communism is as bad as Fascism. Its the same. Look at Chavez. He started a totalitarian system all over again. Pol Pot, Stalin, China, Cuba, South Korea, DDR. Poland. The Chauchescu's. All examples of failed experiments and massmurders. Stalin killed more than Hitler. Even the lefties during the Spanish Civil War who fought against Franco were not better than the fascists. And apart of this: this so called communist system doesnt work, it leads to mass corruption and always to a secret police.


EXACTLY what i said and believe, just not as detailed :P

It's a brilliant idea, however it would never, has never and WILL never work, unless people are nice :) Which obviously will never happen.

Obviously, its okay in small tribes and villages in places like africa, but a whole country under comunism is a bad idea, especially when their powerful.
Offline Taylr  
#33 Posted : 26 July 2009 10:00:26(UTC)
Taylr
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 15/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 4,863
Man
Location: I'm right here

Thanks: 89 times
Was thanked: 133 time(s) in 73 post(s)
Chimp Records wrote:
I was thinking. We all know each other fairly well. So why don't we meet in person? Like a Rockstar Convention or something?

I don't seem to socialize well with Chimpanzees. And i'm sure no one would dare enter Wales, escpecially the English ones (Excluding me :P).
Offline iamlewismason  
#34 Posted : 26 July 2009 10:05:30(UTC)
iamlewismason
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 25/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 91
Man
Location: UK

Taylr wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
I was thinking. We all know each other fairly well. So why don't we meet in person? Like a Rockstar Convention or something?

I don't seem to socialize well with Chimpanzees. And i'm sure no one would dare enter Wales, escpecially the English ones (Excluding me :P).


South is fine. North on the other hand... :P
blonde.bombshell!

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Since when is Lewis a gangsta?


Are you kidding?

Lewis has been robbing motherfuckers since the slave ships with the same clip and the same .45, two point black a motherfucker's sure to die...

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
I thought gay people were supposed to be nice lol.

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
[Elliot: Tehehehe Lewis are James Blunt.] Coincidence? Lewis Mason - 1973

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Lewis Mason is not a made up character. He is a god like entity.


UserPostedImage
Offline Taylr  
#35 Posted : 26 July 2009 10:26:29(UTC)
Taylr
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 15/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 4,863
Man
Location: I'm right here

Thanks: 89 times
Was thanked: 133 time(s) in 73 post(s)
iamlewismason wrote:
Taylr wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
I was thinking. We all know each other fairly well. So why don't we meet in person? Like a Rockstar Convention or something?

I don't seem to socialize well with Chimpanzees. And i'm sure no one would dare enter Wales, escpecially the English ones (Excluding me :P).


South is fine. North on the other hand... :P

When you 100% English and you move to Wales it takes ages to fit in at schools.... I was fine though luckily.
Offline Pg_Tips  
#36 Posted : 26 July 2009 10:39:25(UTC)
Pg_Tips
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 15/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 91
Man
Location: At Home with a mug of tea

Meet-ups are always interesting...

i have some very very good friends from them, and also some strange encounters...
*may have anger issues... be carefull*

UserPostedImage
Offline Gildermershina  
#37 Posted : 26 July 2009 11:14:38(UTC)
Gildermershina
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Moderators, Registered
Joined: 13/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,094
Man
United Kingdom
Location: Probably not here

Was thanked: 113 time(s) in 76 post(s)
cam wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Well, still, it doesn't seem too bad of a system, just the fact of no democracy is a problem.

btw, strange how this thread turned into a conversation about communism.

Democracy is REALLY over-rated.

I mean there are aspects of it which are obviously good, but the problems are so many as to not both listing them. The problem is that people act like democracy is the be all and end all of political ideologies.


Same thing with money. People, Americans in particular, believe money ensures choice and freedom, when in fact, it most often provides the exact opposite. Democracy is the illusion of choice, but the only choice it really provides is at elections every few years. Many Americans defend their right to bear arms, forgetting the reason they have that right is so that they can rise up against the government when they have failed you - indeed it's seen as unpatriotic to so much as disagree with your government in many places. Modern western democracy is such that we chose a person to make big decisions for us, so that we remain almost entirely removed from the direct political process. Every level added is another barrier to personal influence. It's all a grand façade.

But hey, it sure is comfortable.
UserPostedImageUserPostedImageUserPostedImage
Offline troymazing  
#38 Posted : 26 July 2009 11:23:34(UTC)
troymazing
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 11/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,414
Man
Location: Connecticut, USA

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Backkk on topic.

The only people on here I would want to meet are Stacy, Lewis, and Stephanie.
GirlSpice wrote:
Oh well.. she sits outside then. LOL!

Offline Taylr  
#39 Posted : 26 July 2009 11:34:33(UTC)
Taylr
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 15/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 4,863
Man
Location: I'm right here

Thanks: 89 times
Was thanked: 133 time(s) in 73 post(s)
troymazing wrote:
Backkk on topic.

The only people on here I would want to meet are Stacy, Lewis, Taylor and Stephanie.

Fixed :P j/k
User is suspended until 16/05/4760 03:38:29(UTC) stephaniewazhere  
#40 Posted : 26 July 2009 11:36:01(UTC)
stephaniewazhere
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 21/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 18,252
United States

Thanks: 6248 times
Was thanked: 7557 time(s) in 3439 post(s)
troymazing wrote:
Backkk on topic.

The only people on here I would want to meet are Stacy, Lewis, and Stephanie.


Aww thanks I would like to meet you, Lewis, and Aj, Nimrods (sorry I know you gave us your name but I'm so used to calling you nimrods) and I think I'm missing one person.
Users browsing this topic
Guest (6)
4 Pages<1234>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.301 seconds.