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Offline asdf  
#5201 Posted : 11 October 2010 10:35:49(UTC)
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xNightsidex wrote:
Mt. Epic wrote:
Drugs are bad, mkay?


Umbrella statement. And one with extreme holes in it.


pros:

-you momentarily feel good, happy, strange, and otherworldly
-you fit in better for high school (4 years about 5% of your life)

cons:

-it will literally make you ugly with yellowed teeth, weight gain, blood shot eyes, bad breath, etc
-you will have everlasting side effects
-you might become seriously addicted and live on the streets
-it will decrease brain function making you stupid
-you will lose connections with friends and family
-it is very expensive
-it is illegal, you could spend time in jail or a "kid's camp"
- oh, and you could die too.

Your right drugs arent just bad, look at all that good stuff.
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Offline xNightsidex  
#5202 Posted : 12 October 2010 02:39:54(UTC)
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I don't think I have everlasting side effects. I sure don't have yellow teeth, bloodshot eyes, my weight has if anything dropped or remained constant, and I'm perfectly stable. Oh yeah, and I'm shit hot. That's an example for you.

The word "MIGHT" can be thrown around a lot there. Or it should be. "It WILL make you stupid". That's funny, I don't think my IQ has dropped, and I'm still the pedantic sod I've always been. My friends and family are all there, and my mum doesn't even care about drugs in my house.

You're seeing the negative side far too much. And it's ironic to come from someone who isn't even all that drug-savvy.

While I think about it, you also neglected to mention drugs and the creation of Art, which is a huge staple in the pros.
Offline forkboy  
#5203 Posted : 12 October 2010 02:45:18(UTC)
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Jesus Christ kiddo. Stop talking about kids until you have some fucking crasp on reality.

"Everlasting side effects"? Like what? "WILL decrease brain functions"? "It will literally make you ugly with yellowed teeth..."(what, if you're injecting smack or snorting coke your teeth go yellow? Fucking hell, can't make this shit up)"...Weight gain..." (ah yes, all those notorious smackheid fatties. Jaysus.) "...blood shot eyes, bad breath, etc" (again, how is a tab of ecstasy going to make your breath smell bad, and even if it does that's pretty easy to cover up with some minty fresh chewing gum) "You fit in better for high school" lol, yeah, most people who use drugs did in High School pal...Bollocks.

If you have to make outrageous bullshit claims, back them up with some sort of semi-credible source, yeah? Lewis claimed the other guy was making an umbrella statement with extreme holes in it. You replied with a bunch more holes.

This is why I have such a major fucking complaint with governmental drug policy, it is based on the knee-jerk reaction of reactionary idiots who think that "facts" are the reserve of the evil liberal elite. Rather than listen to the opinion of experts, government will ignore scientific evidence. It's ridiculous and offensive and fucking stupid. I encourage you to educate yourself about the risks of drug use. I do not encourage you to use drugs. Hell, I've never used an illicit substance (well, methadrone is now illegal, but was a legal high the one time I took it. And wasn't all that exciting either, helped keep me awake a bit tho) myself. But that's not an excuse for wilful ignorance.

Some drugs MAY HAVE A RISK of decreasing brain functions. Many have a risk of long-term addiction. Most have a chance of overdosing on if you aren't careful. Some could be cut with harmful substances. And actually that last one is part of why drugs should be legalised and sold by government run shops, so that all profits go directly into the taxmans pockets, not just the taxation. You will have a safer product (not a safe product though, there is a difference), less deaths, and you spend considerably less money locking up someone who is ultimately harming nobody but themselves. It's like that ridiculous law we have here in Scotland, where the act of suicide is not a crime, but attempted suicide is officially Breach of the Peace (which for those nor familiar with Scots law is thus: "A crime at common law and is constituted by one or more persons, conducting himself or themselves, in a riotous or disorderly manner to the fear, alarm or annoyance of the lieges.").

And incidentally, the majority of drug addicts tend to be capable of functioning perfectly normally so long as they can get their fix when they need it. The problems occur when that person is in poverty and so needs to steal to get their fill. That's a social problem, that there's still so much poverty in ostensably rich countries in the 21st century.
Offline Gildermershina  
#5204 Posted : 12 October 2010 06:31:15(UTC)
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My view is more in the middle. I think drugs are a shortcut to certain emotional states, and that it's something of a "lack of character" for lack of a better term, to always associate certain experiences with a requirement for a certain drug. This idea that drugs are enhancements, I see it like adding salt to a meal. At some point you're not enhancing the meal, you're just making it taste like salt. At some point you're not enhancing an experience, you're replacing it with a drug. Or with alcohol for that matter. And for whatever irrational reason I take issue with that idea philosophically. It's like deciding you don't want to take responsibility for your life for a period of time so the drug gives you an out. And frankly, as laughably hypocritical as me saying this is, I think people ought to at least be willing to be responsible for everything they do.

That being said, it's everyone's choice.
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Offline forkboy  
#5205 Posted : 12 October 2010 07:25:52(UTC)
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Gildermershina wrote:
My view is more in the middle. I think drugs are a shortcut to certain emotional states, and that it's something of a "lack of character" for lack of a better term, to always associate certain experiences with a requirement for a certain drug. This idea that drugs are enhancements, I see it like adding salt to a meal. At some point you're not enhancing the meal, you're just making it taste like salt. At some point you're not enhancing an experience, you're replacing it with a drug. Or with alcohol for that matter. And for whatever irrational reason I take issue with that idea philosophically. It's like deciding you don't want to take responsibility for your life for a period of time so the drug gives you an out. And frankly, as laughably hypocritical as me saying this is, I think people ought to at least be willing to be responsible for everything they do.

That being said, it's everyone's choice.

I think some escapism is pretty healthy to be honest, or at least natural. And what is wrong with replacing the experience of watching a movie with dropping some acid? So long as you can confine those moments to an appropriate time (I'm not advocating smoking a joint at work) I don't see the problem. Modern life is, to a certain extent, monotony. So many of us sit on our arses all day in tedious office jobs. It was working in an office for the first time that certainly made me understand slightly more why certain people "live for the weekend". And while some people are incapable of acting responsibly while on alcohol or other drugs, that really isn't a big enough case for me to restrict the act for everyone else.
Offline asdf  
#5206 Posted : 12 October 2010 11:22:12(UTC)
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My post was actually taken from a former drug attics blog post.
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Offline forkboy  
#5207 Posted : 12 October 2010 11:39:47(UTC)
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So it's him AND you who are totally ignorant then? I mean all due respect and everything but I tend to take the opinion of scientists over junkies and scientific evidence over anecdotes. I guess I'm just a sucker for the scientific method of inquiry.

Here in the UK there is an advisory board called the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs who provide advice on drug policy to the British government. In 2009 its then chairman, a man called David Nutt, was relieved of his post after criticising the government for the way they ignore scientific fact when it comes to drug policy, unless the findings match the outcome they want. He was also bullied by the then Home Secretary into apologising for a remark that more people in the UK die from falling off a horse than because of ecstasy, and the drug should be downgraded from Class A to Class B. He also criticised the Home Office for taking Cannabis from a Class C up to a Class B despite no scientific justification for it (having only been downgraded to Class C 5 years previously). He had an article published in the medical journal Lancet in 2007 which included the below graph, and mentioned that the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 is "not fit for purpose" and "the exclusion of alcohol and tobacco from the Misuse of Drugs Act is, from a scientific perspective, arbitrary"

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Edited by user 12 October 2010 11:40:43(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline asdf  
#5208 Posted : 12 October 2010 11:46:11(UTC)
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In a way what you are saying and that little graph kind of proves my point though, dependency and PHYSICAL HARM...I agree that the fact that smoking and booze is legal when the rest of it isnt is retarded.
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Offline xNightsidex  
#5209 Posted : 12 October 2010 12:14:50(UTC)
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I want to meet a drug attic. They sound nice.
Offline forkboy  
#5210 Posted : 12 October 2010 12:40:42(UTC)
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asdf wrote:
In a way what you are saying and that little graph kind of proves my point though, dependency and PHYSICAL HARM...I agree that the fact that smoking and booze is legal when the rest of it isnt is retarded.

No, all it really points out is that the current system is unworkable, inconsistent and arbitary. Nobody is denying that drugs have the potential cause harm to users. The argument is that current methods of dealing with drug use DO NOT WORK. The War on Drugs (fucking declaring war on concepts or ideas is idiotic and beyond contempt) has been on the go since Nixon signed the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970 into law. What it's resulted in is America have the highest rate of incarceration in the world: you have 5% of the worlds population, and yet 25% of the worlds prison population for Christs sake! (Source) And here's a pretty graph stolen from Wikipedia showing how incarceration has shot up since the war on drugs declaration in 1971

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This doesn't even begin to touch upon the racial elements of the war on drugs, or the economic ones either, or the involvement with shady governments and paramilitaries in places like Colombia. Interesting article showing how US funded spraying of coca crops in Colombia is hurting honest farmers.

And guess what? People are still using. And mostly it's poor people trying to find an escape from their shitty deadend life. And I think it's probably time, after 40 fucking years of failure, to consider adopting a new attitude to drugs. Cut out dealers and gangs and all the really unsavoury shit in the drug trade. Government licensed premises being the only place to purchase them from, means that we can help millions in the third world out of poverty (there is a reason they grow opium in Afgahnistan and it's not because they like to get high. It's one of the very few cash crops that can grow in such a dry, high altitude, mountainous country), ensure that no dodgy product will end up inside people, reduce the prison population, allow government to spend more money on rehabilitation and education and stop criminalising millions of people who are harming nobody but themselves.
User is suspended until 16/05/4760 03:38:29(UTC) stephaniewazhere  
#5211 Posted : 12 October 2010 12:54:30(UTC)
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Drugs have it's pros and cons just like everything in this world, but anything that's addictive that can harm you seriously is bad in my book.

I don't give a crap if this is an umbrella statement.
Offline Mt. Epic  
#5212 Posted : 12 October 2010 13:06:37(UTC)
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xNightsidex wrote:
Mt. Epic wrote:
Drugs are bad, mkay?


Umbrella statement. And one with extreme holes in it.


lol, jeezus it was a south park reference lol
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Offline asdf  
#5213 Posted : 12 October 2010 14:44:02(UTC)
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Personally, my opinion of drugs is that I would rather know that I am in full control of my actions, and functions without anything being able to cloud my judgment.
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Offline forkboy  
#5214 Posted : 12 October 2010 17:23:26(UTC)
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stephaniewazhere wrote:
Drugs have it's pros and cons just like everything in this world, but anything that's addictive that can harm you seriously is bad in my book.

I don't give a crap if this is an umbrella statement.

CAN being an important word.

And lets be honest, people can get addicted to just about anything that's even remotely pleasurable. Cigarettes, heroin, gambling, sex, eating, alcohol, shopping, video games, you fucking name it. Just because something can be addictive does not mean that thing should be illegal.

And that's great Cody. If that's how you are then all the power in the world to you, seriously. But some people don't mind letting go sometimes, for a few hours. If your actions under the influence harm other people then there are already laws in place to take care of that. But if you are hurting nobody but yourself, well then here's some news for you. My body. My choice what I fucking do to it. Arresting someone for taking drugs, putting them away for 5 years or more, giving them a permanent record that will make finding a job and being able to survive in the world, that's a disproportionate response to someone hurting nobody but themselves.
Offline tension101  
#5215 Posted : 12 October 2010 17:25:28(UTC)
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Offline asdf  
#5216 Posted : 12 October 2010 17:29:39(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
stephaniewazhere wrote:
Drugs have it's pros and cons just like everything in this world, but anything that's addictive that can harm you seriously is bad in my book.

I don't give a crap if this is an umbrella statement.

CAN being an important word.

And lets be honest, people can get addicted to just about anything that's even remotely pleasurable. Cigarettes, heroin, gambling, sex, eating, alcohol, shopping, video games, you fucking name it. Just because something can be addictive does not mean that thing should be illegal.

And that's great Cody. If that's how you are then all the power in the world to you, seriously. But some people don't mind letting go sometimes, for a few hours. If your actions under the influence harm other people then there are already laws in place to take care of that. But if you are hurting nobody but yourself, well then here's some news for you. My body. My choice what I fucking do to it. Arresting someone for taking drugs, putting them away for 5 years or more, giving them a permanent record that will make finding a job and being able to survive in the world, that's a disproportionate response to someone hurting nobody but themselves.


I agree with that too, like I said in an earlier post, if you want to put our life on a shaky foundation then go ahead. But for the sake of debate I continued with the bull crap. ;)
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Offline Captain Insano  
#5217 Posted : 12 October 2010 23:21:42(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:

So many of us sit on our arses all day in tedious office jobs.


Having to work in a fucking office, stuck in a cubicle behind a desk staring at a computer screen would be enough to drive me to go nuts with drugs. What a hideous way to earn a living IMO.

It's the great outdoors for me...suck shit office flunkies!
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Offline Rincewind  
#5218 Posted : 13 October 2010 00:30:59(UTC)
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Captain Insano wrote:
forkboy wrote:

So many of us sit on our arses all day in tedious office jobs.


Having to work in a fucking office, stuck in a cubicle behind a desk staring at a computer screen would be enough to drive me to go nuts with drugs. What a hideous way to earn a living IMO.

It's the great outdoors for me...suck shit office flunkies!


same... well half the year
I hate it when people see me at the supermarket and they are like:
Hey, what are you doing here?
and im just like:
Oh you know, hunting elephants
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#5219 Posted : 13 October 2010 09:20:44(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
stephaniewazhere wrote:
Drugs have it's pros and cons just like everything in this world, but anything that's addictive that can harm you seriously is bad in my book.

I don't give a crap if this is an umbrella statement.

CAN being an important word.

And lets be honest, people can get addicted to just about anything that's even remotely pleasurable. Cigarettes, heroin, gambling, sex, eating, alcohol, shopping, video games, you fucking name it. Just because something can be addictive does not mean that thing should be illegal.
.



I just think anything that will seriously harm you or effect you in a negative way is bad. I can't really say it should be illegal, because I personally don't care anymore. I don't do drugs, unless they are prescribed by my doctor. Even with that, I hate taking drugs. Ex: When I had my temporary acute insomnia back in March/April. The drug I was taking made me moody and I lost my appetite, causing me to lose a lot of my weight. Even lost hair (which was unusual).



Edited by user 13 October 2010 09:22:33(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Aj  
#5220 Posted : 13 October 2010 09:49:20(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
And guess what? People are still using. And mostly it's poor people trying to find an escape from their shitty deadend life. And I think it's probably time, after 40 fucking years of failure, to consider adopting a new attitude to drugs. Cut out dealers and gangs and all the really unsavoury shit in the drug trade. Government licensed premises being the only place to purchase them from, means that we can help millions in the third world out of poverty (there is a reason they grow opium in Afgahnistan and it's not because they like to get high. It's one of the very few cash crops that can grow in such a dry, high altitude, mountainous country), ensure that no dodgy product will end up inside people, reduce the prison population, allow government to spend more money on rehabilitation and education and stop criminalising millions of people who are harming nobody but themselves.


This is brilliantly explained, why don't you go into politics forkboy ? :P
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