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Offline cam  
#21 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:16:41(UTC)
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Marxism is a very authoritarian form of government. And I'm not going solely on the examples given to us in the 20th century.

The first real example that shows Marx own authoritarian streak would be the International Working Men's Association, an international socialist organisation founded in the 1860s, and the way he and his supporters essentially booted out the anarchist wing under Baukinin.

And of course, the USSR was founded with the idea that Lenin & friends would lead a dictatorship of the proletariat to stop counter-revolutionaries from perverting the revolution, but eventually the state would wither away, as was suggested by Marx himself. Marxists call an anarchists naive. Well yes, but belief that a massive buearacracy would suddenly give up it's power because it would be for the greater good is far, far, far, far easier to distort than merely moving straight to a stateless society. Not that anarchism is short of faults its self. but this idea that Marx would have been appalled by Lenin's Soviet Union, I'm not so sure. He would have been by Stalin & Mao (especially the latter!), but that's simply because they were appalling human beings more so than anything else.

And chimp, that was, to use a Marxist term "socialism" as opposed to communism. Communism is the enlightened stage where the state can wither away, we no longer need money and just things for the common good.
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Offline Chimp Records  
#22 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:18:28(UTC)
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Well, still, it doesn't seem too bad of a system, just the fact of no democracy is a problem.

btw, strange how this thread turned into a conversation about communism.
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Offline Aj  
#23 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:22:27(UTC)
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cam wrote:
Marxism is a very authoritarian form of government. And I'm not going solely on the examples given to us in the 20th century.

The first real example that shows Marx own authoritarian streak would be the International Working Men's Association, an international socialist organisation founded in the 1860s, and the way he and his supporters essentially booted out the anarchist wing under Baukinin.

And of course, the USSR was founded with the idea that Lenin & friends would lead a dictatorship of the proletariat to stop counter-revolutionaries from perverting the revolution, but eventually the state would wither away, as was suggested by Marx himself. Marxists call an anarchists naive. Well yes, but belief that a massive buearacracy would suddenly give up it's power because it would be for the greater good is far, far, far, far easier to distort than merely moving straight to a stateless society. Not that anarchism is short of faults its self. but this idea that Marx would have been appalled by Lenin's Soviet Union, I'm not so sure. He would have been by Stalin & Mao (especially the latter!), but that's simply because they were appalling human beings more so than anything else.

And chimp, that was, to use a Marxist term "socialism" as opposed to communism. Communism is the enlightened stage where the state can wither away, we no longer need money and just things for the common good.


You are annoyingly intelligent.

Thats the reason i think its impratical, because all communist governments have gone to shit, and ended up being no better or worse than their opposing side, as was seen with Hitler and Stalin.
Offline cam  
#24 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:22:41(UTC)
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Chimp Records wrote:
Well, still, it doesn't seem too bad of a system, just the fact of no democracy is a problem.

btw, strange how this thread turned into a conversation about communism.

Democracy is REALLY over-rated.

I mean there are aspects of it which are obviously good, but the problems are so many as to not both listing them. The problem is that people act like democracy is the be all and end all of political ideologies.
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Offline Chimp Records  
#25 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:23:56(UTC)
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cam wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Well, still, it doesn't seem too bad of a system, just the fact of no democracy is a problem.

btw, strange how this thread turned into a conversation about communism.

Democracy is REALLY over-rated.

I mean there are aspects of it which are obviously good, but the problems are so many as to not both listing them. The problem is that people act like democracy is the be all and end all of political ideologies.


People have needs, and a democratic society fulfills them best. I do believe that a socialist society would better advance, but people have needs that can't be fulfilled in that sort of society.
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Offline iamlewismason  
#26 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:24:11(UTC)
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It's the "storybook happy ending" of ideologies because in the short term everyone skips merrily under the rainbow...
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Since when is Lewis a gangsta?


Are you kidding?

Lewis has been robbing motherfuckers since the slave ships with the same clip and the same .45, two point black a motherfucker's sure to die...

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I thought gay people were supposed to be nice lol.

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[Elliot: Tehehehe Lewis are James Blunt.] Coincidence? Lewis Mason - 1973

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Offline Chimp Records  
#27 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:24:59(UTC)
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iamlewismason wrote:
It's the "storybook happy ending" of ideologies because in the short term everyone skips merrily under the rainbow...


Well certainly not in the near future.
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Offline Chimp Records  
#28 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:28:19(UTC)
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Also, I don't really believe this but I heard that Lenin was gay or something.
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Offline Aj  
#29 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:28:37(UTC)
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cam wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Well, still, it doesn't seem too bad of a system, just the fact of no democracy is a problem.

btw, strange how this thread turned into a conversation about communism.

Democracy is REALLY over-rated.

I mean there are aspects of it which are obviously good, but the problems are so many as to not both listing them. The problem is that people act like democracy is the be all and end all of political ideologies.


You can never have perfect democracy, there will always be someone who will want to get one over on someone else and will therefore change things towards their benifits in some way or another without the approval of the wider community. On paper, we should be able to get rid of Gordan Brown and call for an election, could we not ? (thats a question).
Offline cam  
#30 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:29:47(UTC)
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iamlewismason wrote:
It's the "storybook happy ending" of ideologies because in the short term everyone skips merrily under the rainbow...

You say this, but eh, every ideolegy is to some degree or another idealistic. Anarchists in their faith that people will just be good without laws and so forth. Communists in their belief that the people in charge would actually relinquish their grasp on power, democracy in that with freedom of speech and action people will become empowered, and they will have an equal chance at success, or even in fascism and their belief that a strong leader, and strong national identity will strengthen the nation as a whole and make it better for it's citizens.
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Offline Lepelbos  
#31 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:35:35(UTC)
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Chimp Records wrote:
Raphaela wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Well communism does give everyone a roof over their heads and food on the table, but so many laws, and no freedom of speech.


That's what was put into action, Karl Marx never said anything about denying freedom of speech.
I suggest reading the Manifesto, clears your mind about it.


I agree. Karl Marx was a great philosopher, but communism isn't a loose form of government. It has to be strong and strict in order for equality amongst all to work. The system is like a stock share where everyone has the same amount. If the economy falls, everyone loses money, if it rises, everyone gains money, but only the same amount. No one loses jobs because everyone works for pennies. lol.


Get out of here. Communism is as bad as Fascism. Its the same. Look at Chavez. He started a totalitarian system all over again. Pol Pot, Stalin, China, Cuba, South Korea, DDR. Poland. The Chauchescu's. All examples of failed experiments and massmurders. Stalin killed more than Hitler. Even the lefties during the Spanish Civil War who fought against Franco were not better than the fascists. And apart of this: this so called communist system doesnt work, it leads to mass corruption and always to a secret police.
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Offline Aj  
#32 Posted : 26 July 2009 09:41:30(UTC)
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Lepelbos wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Raphaela wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Well communism does give everyone a roof over their heads and food on the table, but so many laws, and no freedom of speech.


That's what was put into action, Karl Marx never said anything about denying freedom of speech.
I suggest reading the Manifesto, clears your mind about it.


I agree. Karl Marx was a great philosopher, but communism isn't a loose form of government. It has to be strong and strict in order for equality amongst all to work. The system is like a stock share where everyone has the same amount. If the economy falls, everyone loses money, if it rises, everyone gains money, but only the same amount. No one loses jobs because everyone works for pennies. lol.


Get out of here. Communism is as bad as Fascism. Its the same. Look at Chavez. He started a totalitarian system all over again. Pol Pot, Stalin, China, Cuba, South Korea, DDR. Poland. The Chauchescu's. All examples of failed experiments and massmurders. Stalin killed more than Hitler. Even the lefties during the Spanish Civil War who fought against Franco were not better than the fascists. And apart of this: this so called communist system doesnt work, it leads to mass corruption and always to a secret police.


EXACTLY what i said and believe, just not as detailed :P

It's a brilliant idea, however it would never, has never and WILL never work, unless people are nice :) Which obviously will never happen.

Obviously, its okay in small tribes and villages in places like africa, but a whole country under comunism is a bad idea, especially when their powerful.
Offline Taylr  
#33 Posted : 26 July 2009 10:00:26(UTC)
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Chimp Records wrote:
I was thinking. We all know each other fairly well. So why don't we meet in person? Like a Rockstar Convention or something?

I don't seem to socialize well with Chimpanzees. And i'm sure no one would dare enter Wales, escpecially the English ones (Excluding me :P).
Offline iamlewismason  
#34 Posted : 26 July 2009 10:05:30(UTC)
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Taylr wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
I was thinking. We all know each other fairly well. So why don't we meet in person? Like a Rockstar Convention or something?

I don't seem to socialize well with Chimpanzees. And i'm sure no one would dare enter Wales, escpecially the English ones (Excluding me :P).


South is fine. North on the other hand... :P
blonde.bombshell!

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Since when is Lewis a gangsta?


Are you kidding?

Lewis has been robbing motherfuckers since the slave ships with the same clip and the same .45, two point black a motherfucker's sure to die...

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
I thought gay people were supposed to be nice lol.

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
[Elliot: Tehehehe Lewis are James Blunt.] Coincidence? Lewis Mason - 1973

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Lewis Mason is not a made up character. He is a god like entity.


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Offline Taylr  
#35 Posted : 26 July 2009 10:26:29(UTC)
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iamlewismason wrote:
Taylr wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
I was thinking. We all know each other fairly well. So why don't we meet in person? Like a Rockstar Convention or something?

I don't seem to socialize well with Chimpanzees. And i'm sure no one would dare enter Wales, escpecially the English ones (Excluding me :P).


South is fine. North on the other hand... :P

When you 100% English and you move to Wales it takes ages to fit in at schools.... I was fine though luckily.
Offline Pg_Tips  
#36 Posted : 26 July 2009 10:39:25(UTC)
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Meet-ups are always interesting...

i have some very very good friends from them, and also some strange encounters...
*may have anger issues... be carefull*

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Offline Gildermershina  
#37 Posted : 26 July 2009 11:14:38(UTC)
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cam wrote:
Chimp Records wrote:
Well, still, it doesn't seem too bad of a system, just the fact of no democracy is a problem.

btw, strange how this thread turned into a conversation about communism.

Democracy is REALLY over-rated.

I mean there are aspects of it which are obviously good, but the problems are so many as to not both listing them. The problem is that people act like democracy is the be all and end all of political ideologies.


Same thing with money. People, Americans in particular, believe money ensures choice and freedom, when in fact, it most often provides the exact opposite. Democracy is the illusion of choice, but the only choice it really provides is at elections every few years. Many Americans defend their right to bear arms, forgetting the reason they have that right is so that they can rise up against the government when they have failed you - indeed it's seen as unpatriotic to so much as disagree with your government in many places. Modern western democracy is such that we chose a person to make big decisions for us, so that we remain almost entirely removed from the direct political process. Every level added is another barrier to personal influence. It's all a grand façade.

But hey, it sure is comfortable.
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Offline troymazing  
#38 Posted : 26 July 2009 11:23:34(UTC)
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Backkk on topic.

The only people on here I would want to meet are Stacy, Lewis, and Stephanie.
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Oh well.. she sits outside then. LOL!

Offline Taylr  
#39 Posted : 26 July 2009 11:34:33(UTC)
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troymazing wrote:
Backkk on topic.

The only people on here I would want to meet are Stacy, Lewis, Taylor and Stephanie.

Fixed :P j/k
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#40 Posted : 26 July 2009 11:36:01(UTC)
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troymazing wrote:
Backkk on topic.

The only people on here I would want to meet are Stacy, Lewis, and Stephanie.


Aww thanks I would like to meet you, Lewis, and Aj, Nimrods (sorry I know you gave us your name but I'm so used to calling you nimrods) and I think I'm missing one person.
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