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Offline TheCDs  
#1 Posted : 05 December 2009 09:01:01(UTC)
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As our society has advanced we have gotten to the point where the people of the richest nations can afford to and spend a large portion of their time and money on improving their look. It started with simple stuff like fashionable clothing, and then moved to cosmetic surgeries, and now we seem to be on the cusp of the next breakthrough, genetic engineering. I am not talking about the kind of engineering that could be used to cure diseases such as Huntington's or conditions like Autism before the child is born but things like choosing a child's gender, eye color, hair color, and eventually perhaps even their physical appearance can be altered to any lengths.

How do you feel about the idea of picking your babies gender? What kind of ethical questions does this raise? What does the ability to undermine and control nature say about religion? What about sexuality, if it is genetic, what is stopping parents from having the babies "gay" gene blocked?

These questions and more are raised so please feel free to discuss.
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Offline Mt. Epic  
#2 Posted : 05 December 2009 09:09:28(UTC)
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They can do that already? I mean without scrambling the baby's brains out?
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Offline Raphaela  
#3 Posted : 05 December 2009 09:12:22(UTC)
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I think it should only be used to scrap babies with genetic conditions.
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Offline Gildermershina  
#4 Posted : 05 December 2009 09:29:06(UTC)
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I think, there is so much cultural pressure to aspire to perfection, when it is actually the imperfections that make something unique. It's hard to really come up with an argument against preventing kids from being born with disfigurements, mental illness, disabilities, but at the same time, every time humans aspire to get one up on nature, they fuck things up. What if the very genes that cause a personality disorder are also genes that drive great artists to inspiration. What if children are born with really powerful immune systems, and then after a generation, a great virus evolves that can beat it, and therefore completely obliterates the rest of us? And does that mean that rich people get to have perfect kids, designed to be smart, to be more able, more successful, and therefore these people get the first pick of important jobs...

There is a natural order to things, and while it sucks if you try for a baby for ten years and your kid is born with cancer, well that's horrible but that's the way it is, but really you probably shouldn't be having a fucking kid in the first place because they're going to grow up in a world of food shortages, energy crises, and low quality of life. If all children survive, the world simply cannot sustain that kind of population growth. Sure here in the western world it may seem all good and rosy right now, how much of the food you buy is even grown in your own country. Half? Less? Why should your kid who might have had MS, survive and live a great successful life, when a poor but otherwise healthy kid who lives next to the coffee plantation dies of starvation?
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Offline Mt. Epic  
#5 Posted : 05 December 2009 11:00:36(UTC)
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Although Gildy (mind if I call you that?) says that it isn't necesarily fair that the rich kids get what this and the poor folk don't, I think it is fair. The kid was lucky to be born into a rich family, and the parents were able to get rich, so they deserve. And, although the parents of the poor kid weren't able to work to be rich (doesn't mean they didn't work hard enough, they could've worked every moment of their lives), the poor kid doesn't get it because, well, his parents were unlucky in life. It doesn't have to be the parent's fault. But, when mankind began, everybody had equal cards. And it all depend on how you played them to get where in society. And that's what happened to nations, cultures, people, etc. The kid who was rich, his people became more successful, so they have the money to get the boy all Einstein-like, while the poor kid's people weren't as successful, or maybe not successful at all, so that kind of technology to enhance genetics and tweak them up would be very resourceful moneywise.


But still, it is kinda sad to see the poor get nothing while the rich get everything. Sometimes, I wish communism would've prevailed. The only good that democracy does is give freedom of speech (which should be included in socialism too), the right to vote (which I've noticed barely anybody here in the states of America ever do), and the right to either be a lazy bum, or a richie mcgee. Communism is much more organized, and it doesn't sound childish.
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Offline Gildermershina  
#6 Posted : 05 December 2009 11:13:05(UTC)
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Mt. Epic wrote:
Although Gildy (mind if I call you that?) says that it isn't necesarily fair that the rich kids get what this and the poor folk don't, I think it is fair. The kid was lucky to be born into a rich family, and the parents were able to get rich, so they deserve. And, although the parents of the poor kid weren't able to work to be rich (doesn't mean they didn't work hard enough, they could've worked every moment of their lives), the poor kid doesn't get it because, well, his parents were unlucky in life. It doesn't have to be the parent's fault. But, when mankind began, everybody had equal cards. And it all depend on how you played them to get where in society. And that's what happened to nations, cultures, people, etc. The kid who was rich, his people became more successful, so they have the money to get the boy all Einstein-like, while the poor kid's people weren't as successful, or maybe not successful at all, so that kind of technology to enhance genetics and tweak them up would be very resourceful moneywise.


But still, it is kinda sad to see the poor get nothing while the rich get everything. Sometimes, I wish communism would've prevailed. The only good that democracy does is give freedom of speech (which should be included in socialism too), the right to vote (which I've noticed barely anybody here in the states of America ever do), and the right to either be a lazy bum, or a richie mcgee. Communism is much more organized, and it doesn't sound childish.


What I was actually saying wasn't about inequality, but more about world trade and economics. Ie. overpopulation in poor areas where people are starving to death and dying, and all the food grown in their countries is being shipped off to us rich countries, we think it's a great tragedy that one kid dies, so when the food shortages really do kick in, people will really be taken by surprise to discover that they can't buy melons in December or their beef is prohibitively expensive, and essentially to have a child in a world already creaking under the weight of this many humans, although it seems fine here, it soon enough won't be fine at all, and if anything ensuring more children survive is a bad thing overall.
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Offline Mt. Epic  
#7 Posted : 05 December 2009 11:26:32(UTC)
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Gildermershina wrote:
Mt. Epic wrote:
Although Gildy (mind if I call you that?) says that it isn't necesarily fair that the rich kids get what this and the poor folk don't, I think it is fair. The kid was lucky to be born into a rich family, and the parents were able to get rich, so they deserve. And, although the parents of the poor kid weren't able to work to be rich (doesn't mean they didn't work hard enough, they could've worked every moment of their lives), the poor kid doesn't get it because, well, his parents were unlucky in life. It doesn't have to be the parent's fault. But, when mankind began, everybody had equal cards. And it all depend on how you played them to get where in society. And that's what happened to nations, cultures, people, etc. The kid who was rich, his people became more successful, so they have the money to get the boy all Einstein-like, while the poor kid's people weren't as successful, or maybe not successful at all, so that kind of technology to enhance genetics and tweak them up would be very resourceful moneywise.


But still, it is kinda sad to see the poor get nothing while the rich get everything. Sometimes, I wish communism would've prevailed. The only good that democracy does is give freedom of speech (which should be included in socialism too), the right to vote (which I've noticed barely anybody here in the states of America ever do), and the right to either be a lazy bum, or a richie mcgee. Communism is much more organized, and it doesn't sound childish.


What I was actually saying wasn't about inequality, but more about world trade and economics. Ie. overpopulation in poor areas where people are starving to death and dying, and all the food grown in their countries is being shipped off to us rich countries, we think it's a great tragedy that one kid dies, so when the food shortages really do kick in, people will really be taken by surprise to discover that they can't buy melons in December or their beef is prohibitively expensive, and essentially to have a child in a world already creaking under the weight of this many humans, although it seems fine here, it soon enough won't be fine at all, and if anything ensuring more children survive is a bad thing overall.


ah, gotcha. I might start debating this a little bit, but I am leaving the house for a few hours, and for some reason, this website can't be reached on cellphones.
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Offline TheCDs  
#8 Posted : 06 December 2009 07:27:39(UTC)
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Gildermershina wrote:
Mt. Epic wrote:
Although Gildy (mind if I call you that?) says that it isn't necesarily fair that the rich kids get what this and the poor folk don't, I think it is fair. The kid was lucky to be born into a rich family, and the parents were able to get rich, so they deserve. And, although the parents of the poor kid weren't able to work to be rich (doesn't mean they didn't work hard enough, they could've worked every moment of their lives), the poor kid doesn't get it because, well, his parents were unlucky in life. It doesn't have to be the parent's fault. But, when mankind began, everybody had equal cards. And it all depend on how you played them to get where in society. And that's what happened to nations, cultures, people, etc. The kid who was rich, his people became more successful, so they have the money to get the boy all Einstein-like, while the poor kid's people weren't as successful, or maybe not successful at all, so that kind of technology to enhance genetics and tweak them up would be very resourceful moneywise.


But still, it is kinda sad to see the poor get nothing while the rich get everything. Sometimes, I wish communism would've prevailed. The only good that democracy does is give freedom of speech (which should be included in socialism too), the right to vote (which I've noticed barely anybody here in the states of America ever do), and the right to either be a lazy bum, or a richie mcgee. Communism is much more organized, and it doesn't sound childish.


What I was actually saying wasn't about inequality, but more about world trade and economics. Ie. overpopulation in poor areas where people are starving to death and dying, and all the food grown in their countries is being shipped off to us rich countries, we think it's a great tragedy that one kid dies, so when the food shortages really do kick in, people will really be taken by surprise to discover that they can't buy melons in December or their beef is prohibitively expensive, and essentially to have a child in a world already creaking under the weight of this many humans, although it seems fine here, it soon enough won't be fine at all, and if anything ensuring more children survive is a bad thing overall.


I was taking a course on the economic development of lesser developed countries (LDC) and a few things from your argument jump out at me. Firstly the empirical data shows that birth rates in developed countries have been on a steady decline, the population isn't growing because we are having so many kids, the population is growing because of relatively huge declines in death rates. In LDCs the birth rate is still extremely high because the death rate is so high, have to have more kids to ensure one survives. Also the exportation of food is a necessary evil of economic development. Instead of jumping out with a "it shouldn't be this way" line of thinking for a moment accept that capitalism is the way of the majority of the world.

In an LDC there are two labor markets, an informal sector and a formal sector. The informal sector includes agriculture, places where workers are paid based on labor supply and demand, the textbook labor market. The informal sector is where manufacturing jobs exist and are either under minimum wage laws or have unions setting a wage. That wage is much higher than the informal wage (anywhere from double to even more). The single best way to improve the distribution of income and the economic well being of the nation is to move people out of the informal sector and into the formal sector. British economist W.A. Lewis argued that the large number of workers employed in the informal sector gives means that some workers are providing no additional output (marginal product of labor, MPL for that worker is 0). Lewis further claims that because of this some number of workers can be moved out of the informal sector into the formal sector without decreasing informal sector production.

For a factory in the formal sector to expand they need to have labor and capital. Labor, L, is extremely easy for an LDC, unskilled labor is its most abundant resource. Capital, K, is much harder for an LDC to acquire because it most always must be imported from abroad. Early on most LDC firms cannot compete in world markets, or at least not at a level that can finance their growth, and so they must acquire foreign exchange from elsewhere. This is where the exporting of food comes in, LDCs can be extremely competitive in world food markets and the agricultural sector (informal) of the economy can provide the additional foreign exchange needed to fund formal sector capital purchases. Increased K requires increases in L to maintain production and workers are taken from the informal sector into higher paying jobs in the formal sector. Lewis makes it very clear that capitalists (the owners of formal sector firms) do get the biggest gains, but there are still positive gains to the distribution of incomes, moving some workers up in lifestyle.

More on topic, I find the ability to alter children before birth unethical. Eventually they are going to grow up and become adults (that is the hope at least) and to have made changes to them without their permission is not something I can support. What if he would have liked his big nose? What if she would have been much happier with small breasts? Parent's need to make medical decisions for their children when the well being of those children are in danger, but here these changes are not health issues but cosmetic issues and the parent should leave those issues to their children to decide when they grow up.
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Offline Gildermershina  
#9 Posted : 06 December 2009 08:47:09(UTC)
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TheCDs wrote:
Gildermershina wrote:
Mt. Epic wrote:
Although Gildy (mind if I call you that?) says that it isn't necesarily fair that the rich kids get what this and the poor folk don't, I think it is fair. The kid was lucky to be born into a rich family, and the parents were able to get rich, so they deserve. And, although the parents of the poor kid weren't able to work to be rich (doesn't mean they didn't work hard enough, they could've worked every moment of their lives), the poor kid doesn't get it because, well, his parents were unlucky in life. It doesn't have to be the parent's fault. But, when mankind began, everybody had equal cards. And it all depend on how you played them to get where in society. And that's what happened to nations, cultures, people, etc. The kid who was rich, his people became more successful, so they have the money to get the boy all Einstein-like, while the poor kid's people weren't as successful, or maybe not successful at all, so that kind of technology to enhance genetics and tweak them up would be very resourceful moneywise.


But still, it is kinda sad to see the poor get nothing while the rich get everything. Sometimes, I wish communism would've prevailed. The only good that democracy does is give freedom of speech (which should be included in socialism too), the right to vote (which I've noticed barely anybody here in the states of America ever do), and the right to either be a lazy bum, or a richie mcgee. Communism is much more organized, and it doesn't sound childish.


What I was actually saying wasn't about inequality, but more about world trade and economics. Ie. overpopulation in poor areas where people are starving to death and dying, and all the food grown in their countries is being shipped off to us rich countries, we think it's a great tragedy that one kid dies, so when the food shortages really do kick in, people will really be taken by surprise to discover that they can't buy melons in December or their beef is prohibitively expensive, and essentially to have a child in a world already creaking under the weight of this many humans, although it seems fine here, it soon enough won't be fine at all, and if anything ensuring more children survive is a bad thing overall.


I was taking a course on the economic development of lesser developed countries (LDC) and a few things from your argument jump out at me. Firstly the empirical data shows that birth rates in developed countries have been on a steady decline, the population isn't growing because we are having so many kids, the population is growing because of relatively huge declines in death rates. In LDCs the birth rate is still extremely high because the death rate is so high, have to have more kids to ensure one survives. Also the exportation of food is a necessary evil of economic development. Instead of jumping out with a "it shouldn't be this way" line of thinking for a moment accept that capitalism is the way of the majority of the world.

In an LDC there are two labor markets, an informal sector and a formal sector. The informal sector includes agriculture, places where workers are paid based on labor supply and demand, the textbook labor market. The informal sector is where manufacturing jobs exist and are either under minimum wage laws or have unions setting a wage. That wage is much higher than the informal wage (anywhere from double to even more). The single best way to improve the distribution of income and the economic well being of the nation is to move people out of the informal sector and into the formal sector. British economist W.A. Lewis argued that the large number of workers employed in the informal sector gives means that some workers are providing no additional output (marginal product of labor, MPL for that worker is 0). Lewis further claims that because of this some number of workers can be moved out of the informal sector into the formal sector without decreasing informal sector production.

For a factory in the formal sector to expand they need to have labor and capital. Labor, L, is extremely easy for an LDC, unskilled labor is its most abundant resource. Capital, K, is much harder for an LDC to acquire because it most always must be imported from abroad. Early on most LDC firms cannot compete in world markets, or at least not at a level that can finance their growth, and so they must acquire foreign exchange from elsewhere. This is where the exporting of food comes in, LDCs can be extremely competitive in world food markets and the agricultural sector (informal) of the economy can provide the additional foreign exchange needed to fund formal sector capital purchases. Increased K requires increases in L to maintain production and workers are taken from the informal sector into higher paying jobs in the formal sector. Lewis makes it very clear that capitalists (the owners of formal sector firms) do get the biggest gains, but there are still positive gains to the distribution of incomes, moving some workers up in lifestyle.


Okay, I get all that (kind of), but my point was that due to the overpopulation crises, which we in the western world seem oblivious to because it's not happening here, children born today are being born into a world where food shortages are inevitable and will affect everyone, not just the poor, so for us to be concerned with genetically engineering super-children in our little bubble where all seems well and good, that strikes me as incredibly short-sighted.

I use food as a point not because of the ethical aspects, but because that's where it's going to be felt first. As for the old capitalism argument, I maintain the position, as history has repeatedly proven, capitalism on a global scale does not actually trickle down and benefit all levels of society as some claim, because it is expressly designed to exploit a resource or market opportunity to chase an infinitely-increasing profit necessitating a reduction in production costs to their absolute minimum - i.e. finding the people in the world who will work the cheapest, for the longest.
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Offline Thorgrim  
#10 Posted : 07 December 2009 01:24:34(UTC)
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Mt. Epic wrote:
Communism is much more organized, and it doesn't sound childish.


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Offline Gildermershina  
#11 Posted : 07 December 2009 04:29:59(UTC)
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Thorgrim wrote:
Mt. Epic wrote:
Communism is much more organized, and it doesn't sound childish.


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Joke of the day.


Not sure how this short but accurate appraisal of Communism is a joke, but okay.
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