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Offline forkboy  
#21 Posted : 09 August 2009 11:33:25(UTC)
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stephaniewazhere wrote:
Weed is more dominant because it is easily growable ( i know that's not a word but you know what I mean) Imagine if it was legal, how much access people would have.
Now selling it in stores may be different but people already have a much more negative reception on weed so that can't happen.

Yes, but it's also relatively easy to homebrew alcohol, and for example homebrew beers will almost always have a higher alcohol content than beers bought in a shop.

Incidentally, I've no real problem with people growing their own pot. At least that way money isn't going to dealers.
Offline Raphaela  
#22 Posted : 09 August 2009 11:36:07(UTC)
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I might add, on the black market thing, it wouldn't be so big.
Who'd risk their lives going to a violent neighborhood if they can buy drugs on the corner of their house?
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User is suspended until 16/05/4760 03:38:29(UTC) stephaniewazhere  
#23 Posted : 09 August 2009 11:36:39(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
stephaniewazhere wrote:
Weed is more dominant because it is easily growable ( i know that's not a word but you know what I mean) Imagine if it was legal, how much access people would have.
Now selling it in stores may be different but people already have a much more negative reception on weed so that can't happen.

Yes, but it's also relatively easy to homebrew alcohol, and for example homebrew beers will almost always have a higher alcohol content than beers bought in a shop.

Incidentally, I've no real problem with people growing their own pot. At least that way money isn't going to dealers.


Yeah, but that's the parent s job to educate their kids not to take the alcohol. My friends mom when I was little had alcohol all over her top cabinet and my friend wouldn't dare touch any of the bottles. Now if your children does it anyway as a parent you must stop being selfish and give up drinking so your children wont have access to them.
Offline sav  
#24 Posted : 09 August 2009 11:36:50(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
Yeah, figured I'd wait for other people to chirp in before I replied to my own post.

OK, well, I'll just come out from the off and to be perfectly clear, I'm pro-legalisation. But legalisation with restrictions.

OK, the drug trade is bad. It is full of horrible people who exploit others, kill many, many poor people, and so on. But that's why legalisation is the only realistic option. 40 years on from the declaration of war, drug use is up considerabley in the UK & the US, and presumably other western countries too. The war has failed miserably. People are still making obscene sums of cash from the suffering of others, and people are still using and ending up addicted to drugs.

If you legalise the actual drugs, you can then focus the money and the law enforcement agencies on tackling the black market people. Meanwhile, drugs would be taxed heavily to raise money for things like treatment to help addicts get off their habit, or to deal with medical issues, etc. They would be age-restricted (18+, 21+, whatever), and only sold in specially licensed shops, for use in the home only. Obviously people would still smuggle pills into clubs and so on, but the idea is to at least reduce the numbers using in public places, certainly for the very hard drugs.

It's none of my business if you choose to snort some cocaine. Entirely your perogative. I don't want to try any myself, but it's not hurting me so fuck it, fire away.

The other major bonus would be that it would help drag many people in the third world out of poverty. Give special licenses to farmers to grow opium poppies in Afgahnistan, to coca farmers in Bolivia, etc etc, you get the idea.

Of course, depsite the fact that it would reduce numbers in prison for offences which are ultimately minor and hurt nobody but themselves, would increase tax revenues and possibly mean a reduction in other forms of tax, would improve living conditions for many others, and would help put real scummy individuals out of business, real drug law liberalistion is not likely any time in the near future.


i agree on all. anyway, if legalisation goes on, i don't think it would be that perfect. for example, first world countries wouldn't want to "give a hand" to third world countries to come out of poverty.
Offline old.gregg  
#25 Posted : 09 August 2009 11:41:14(UTC)
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While drugs are not directly affecting you - legalisation of drugs may, indirectly. It would run a higher risk of drug related accidents. It also wouldn't eliminate all problems with dealing, people would still be out to make a profit, and people would still not be able to afford these prices. If they were sold at legal outlets, you'd still get people trying to flog it cheaper - and people willing to take the risk buying it through this option. It's not always the drugs themselves that are harmful either - other things that may be present still pose a threat.
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Offline forkboy  
#26 Posted : 09 August 2009 11:46:31(UTC)
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old.gregg wrote:
While drugs are not directly affecting you - legalisation of drugs may, indirectly. It would run a higher risk of drug related accidents. It also wouldn't eliminate all problems with dealing, people would still be out to make a profit, and people would still not be able to afford these prices. If they were sold at legal outlets, you'd still get people trying to flog it cheaper - and people willing to take the risk buying it through this option. It's not always the drugs themselves that are harmful either - other things that may be present still pose a threat.

Well yes, undoubtedly a black market would still exist, much as it does with cigarettes. However, the punishments would be much more draconian for dealing without the appropriate license, and some of the extensive budget that goes into punishing low level drug users (the guy jailed for posession of a wee bit of weed for personal use) can be pushed into law enforcement to tackle the drug dealers.

I also forgot to mention that you would get rid of the situation where drugs are potentially cut with toxic materials.

Obviously it's not going to be a perfect system as we don't live in a perfect world. But the positives significantly outweigh the negatives, for me.
Offline forkboy  
#27 Posted : 09 August 2009 11:49:06(UTC)
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stephaniewazhere wrote:
Yeah, but that's the parent s job to educate their kids not to take the alcohol. My friends mom when I was little had alcohol all over her top cabinet and my friend wouldn't dare touch any of the bottles. Now if your children does it anyway as a parent you must stop being selfish and give up drinking so your children wont have access to them.

Alternatively, you can introduce your children to alcohol at a relatively young age (in small quantities, and I'm talking about nine or ten, a small glass of wine over dinner, maybe a little taste of your whisky or whatever else). Educate your kids about alcohol. Don't tell them not to do it, because that will have absolutely no effect. Instead, just bring them up so that they are well aware of the concept of drinking responsibly and they'll be fine. There's no need to remove all the alcohol from your house or anything like that, it's just a case of common sense.

And it can be exactly the same with legal drugs. Common sense.
User is suspended until 16/05/4760 03:38:29(UTC) stephaniewazhere  
#28 Posted : 09 August 2009 11:49:39(UTC)
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I think that there is a purpose for having weed illegal. All I got to say if you need it so badly make sure no one catches you but when you get caught don't whine like a little bitch.
Offline old.gregg  
#29 Posted : 09 August 2009 11:50:40(UTC)
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I guess I'm biased against it, as I would like to work for the health service. Legalisation would undoubtedly lead to more drug-caused conditions, thus putting more pressure not only on the taxpayer, but the service itself, thus making people who're in trouble not at all caused by themselves may be waiting longer for treatment. Raph brought up the fact that taxes would be able to compensate for this - but would taxes really be adequate?
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User is suspended until 16/05/4760 03:38:29(UTC) stephaniewazhere  
#30 Posted : 09 August 2009 11:54:29(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:
stephaniewazhere wrote:
Yeah, but that's the parent s job to educate their kids not to take the alcohol. My friends mom when I was little had alcohol all over her top cabinet and my friend wouldn't dare touch any of the bottles. Now if your children does it anyway as a parent you must stop being selfish and give up drinking so your children wont have access to them.

Alternatively, you can introduce your children to alcohol at a relatively young age (in small quantities, and I'm talking about nine or ten, a small glass of wine over dinner, maybe a little taste of your whisky or whatever else). Educate your kids about alcohol. Don't tell them not to do it, because that will have absolutely no effect. Instead, just bring them up so that they are well aware of the concept of drinking responsibly and they'll be fine. There's no need to remove all the alcohol from your house or anything like that, it's just a case of common sense.

And it can be exactly the same with legal drugs. Common sense.


Alcohol and kids don't match to me. That the #1 mistake parents make (well not really) is not saying no. It is a big issue for a child to be drinking alcohol, it is dangerous and not classy at all. In the US you must be 21 years old and older to drink no exceptions. And when I mean remove alcohol I mean when a kid gets to a point that he is sitting on the floor drunk. No parent should allow their kid to drink alcohol, there is not such thing as kid drinking responsibly.

Edited by user 09 August 2009 11:56:37(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline old.gregg  
#31 Posted : 09 August 2009 11:55:52(UTC)
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stephaniewazhere wrote:
forkboy wrote:
stephaniewazhere wrote:
Yeah, but that's the parent s job to educate their kids not to take the alcohol. My friends mom when I was little had alcohol all over her top cabinet and my friend wouldn't dare touch any of the bottles. Now if your children does it anyway as a parent you must stop being selfish and give up drinking so your children wont have access to them.

Alternatively, you can introduce your children to alcohol at a relatively young age (in small quantities, and I'm talking about nine or ten, a small glass of wine over dinner, maybe a little taste of your whisky or whatever else). Educate your kids about alcohol. Don't tell them not to do it, because that will have absolutely no effect. Instead, just bring them up so that they are well aware of the concept of drinking responsibly and they'll be fine. There's no need to remove all the alcohol from your house or anything like that, it's just a case of common sense.

And it can be exactly the same with legal drugs. Common sense.


Alcohol and kids don't match to me. That the #1 mistake parents make (well not really) is not saying no. It is a big issue for a child to be drinking alcohol, it is dangerous and not classy at all. In the US you must be 21 years old and older to drink no exceptions. And when I mean remove alcohol I mean when I kid gets to a point that he is sitting on the floor drunk. No parent should allow there kid to drink alcohol, thee is not such thing as kid drinking responsibly.


The bottom line is, if your friends are drinking, and you've never had a drink before, you're gonna try it. Not knowing anything about it is not a good thing.
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User is suspended until 16/05/4760 03:38:29(UTC) stephaniewazhere  
#32 Posted : 09 August 2009 11:59:15(UTC)
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old.gregg wrote:
stephaniewazhere wrote:
forkboy wrote:
stephaniewazhere wrote:
Yeah, but that's the parent s job to educate their kids not to take the alcohol. My friends mom when I was little had alcohol all over her top cabinet and my friend wouldn't dare touch any of the bottles. Now if your children does it anyway as a parent you must stop being selfish and give up drinking so your children wont have access to them.

Alternatively, you can introduce your children to alcohol at a relatively young age (in small quantities, and I'm talking about nine or ten, a small glass of wine over dinner, maybe a little taste of your whisky or whatever else). Educate your kids about alcohol. Don't tell them not to do it, because that will have absolutely no effect. Instead, just bring them up so that they are well aware of the concept of drinking responsibly and they'll be fine. There's no need to remove all the alcohol from your house or anything like that, it's just a case of common sense.

And it can be exactly the same with legal drugs. Common sense.


Alcohol and kids don't match to me. That the #1 mistake parents make (well not really) is not saying no. It is a big issue for a child to be drinking alcohol, it is dangerous and not classy at all. In the US you must be 21 years old and older to drink no exceptions. And when I mean remove alcohol I mean when I kid gets to a point that he is sitting on the floor drunk. No parent should allow there kid to drink alcohol, thee is not such thing as kid drinking responsibly.


The bottom line is, if your friends are drinking, and you've never had a drink before, you're gonna try it. Not knowing anything about it is not a good thing.


That's why a parent needs to say "NO!" that way when the kid does drink you can punish him/her for not following the rules, otherwise the kid will be like "but you never said drinking is a bad thing or that I couldn't do it" Be a parent not a friend.

Edited by user 09 August 2009 12:00:04(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline old.gregg  
#33 Posted : 09 August 2009 12:03:21(UTC)
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stephaniewazhere wrote:
That's why a parent needs to say "NO!" that way when the kid does drink you can punish him/her for not following the rules, otherwise the kid will be like "but you never said drinking is a bad thing or that I couldn't do it" Be a parent not a friend.


That works in very few cases - young teens are drawn to breaking their parents rules. If you put a ban on something that has a mystery surrounding it like alcohol, you're more or less asking for trouble in my opinion.
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Offline forkboy  
#34 Posted : 09 August 2009 12:05:55(UTC)
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stephaniewazhere wrote:
I think that there is a purpose for having weed illegal. All I got to say if you need it so badly make sure no one catches you but when you get caught don't whine like a little bitch.

Well, in my almost 25 full years on this planet I've never once taken an illegal substance. I don't support the liberalisation of drug laws so I can get high, but because the war on drugs is a giant waste of money, and the prisons are full of people who really should be getting treatment rather than being treated worse than burglars. The whole situation makes me very angry, that one day one of my friends could get jailed just for smoking weed occasionally.

old.gregg wrote:
I guess I'm biased against it, as I would like to work for the health service. Legalisation would undoubtedly lead to more drug-caused conditions, thus putting more pressure not only on the taxpayer, but the service itself, thus making people who're in trouble not at all caused by themselves may be waiting longer for treatment. Raph brought up the fact that taxes would be able to compensate for this - but would taxes really be adequate?

I can understand your reticence. Legalisation would most likely lead to an increase in drug related hospital admissions (but not a significant one in the long term, people would try stuff but not neccessarily become long term users), but I do think that the income from taxes could meet that gap AND lead to even more money for the health service.

stephaniewazhere wrote:
Alcohol and kids don't match to me. That the #1 mistake parents make (well not really) is not saying no. It is a big issue for a child to be drinking alcohol, it is dangerous and not classy at all. In the US you must be 21 years old and older to drink no exceptions. And when I mean remove alcohol I mean when a kid gets to a point that he is sitting on the floor drunk. No parent should allow their kid to drink alcohol, there is not such thing as kid drinking responsibly.

No. I'm sorry, but that's not true. Take countries like Spain & France for example. Wine is a part of their culture, and kids often drink wine in restaurants from the age of 14, when accompanied by their parents. And yet it's the UK that has the worst binge drinking problems in Europe, not the French. Kids are, more often than not, going to experiment with alcohol. That's just a fact. So we need to teach them how to drink responsibly, and how to enjoy a good wine, rather than going out and drinking 14 bottles of Bacardi Breezers, or attacking one of those cheap three litre bottles of cider with their pals in some forest.
User is suspended until 16/05/4760 03:38:29(UTC) stephaniewazhere  
#35 Posted : 09 August 2009 12:09:51(UTC)
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old.gregg wrote:
stephaniewazhere wrote:
That's why a parent needs to say "NO!" that way when the kid does drink you can punish him/her for not following the rules, otherwise the kid will be like "but you never said drinking is a bad thing or that I couldn't do it" Be a parent not a friend.


That works in very few cases - young teens are drawn to breaking their parents rules. If you put a ban on something that has a mystery surrounding it like alcohol, you're more or less asking for trouble in my opinion.


No! No! No! No! As a parent your duty is to set rules that will make your child stay away from any danger, and by not putting rules your kids will be more liberal and the more liberal the more trouble you will have.

And Thats a whole bunch of bologna. The whole "then the child would want to break the rules" is crap. If you set rules on your kids from day 1 and when they break them you punish them, its more of a chance the kid won't do it again than just letting your kid be free. Now if the teen is a "bad boy" then the kid should be taken to counseling or even to juvenile jail for breaking the rules, if he still doesn't listen make the punishment harsher every time until he learns. When I say harsh I don't mean violence. "Violence is not punishing a kid".
Offline old.gregg  
#36 Posted : 09 August 2009 12:13:14(UTC)
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stephaniewazhere wrote:
old.gregg wrote:
stephaniewazhere wrote:
That's why a parent needs to say "NO!" that way when the kid does drink you can punish him/her for not following the rules, otherwise the kid will be like "but you never said drinking is a bad thing or that I couldn't do it" Be a parent not a friend.


That works in very few cases - young teens are drawn to breaking their parents rules. If you put a ban on something that has a mystery surrounding it like alcohol, you're more or less asking for trouble in my opinion.


No! No! No! No! As a parent your duty is to set rules that will make your child stay away from any danger, and by not putting rules your kids will be more liberal and the more liberal the more trouble you will have.

And Thats a whole bunch of bologna. The whole "then the child would want to break the rules" is crap. If you set rules on your kids from day 1 and when they break them you punish them, its more of a chance the kid won't do it again than just letting your kid be free. Now if the teen is a "bad boy" then the kid should be taken to counseling or even to juvenile jail for breaking the rules, if he still doesn't listen make the punishment harsher every time until he learns. When I say harsh I don't mean violence. "Violence is not punishing a kid".


Letting your child become more knowledgable about alcohol in a safe environment is not having no rules regarding the subject whatsoever. As forkboy pointed out - the statistics don't lie, and kids introduced to alcohol properly are much less likely to go out and binge.
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Offline sav  
#37 Posted : 09 August 2009 12:14:20(UTC)
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stephaniewazhere wrote:
old.gregg wrote:
stephaniewazhere wrote:
forkboy wrote:
stephaniewazhere wrote:
Yeah, but that's the parent s job to educate their kids not to take the alcohol. My friends mom when I was little had alcohol all over her top cabinet and my friend wouldn't dare touch any of the bottles. Now if your children does it anyway as a parent you must stop being selfish and give up drinking so your children wont have access to them.

Alternatively, you can introduce your children to alcohol at a relatively young age (in small quantities, and I'm talking about nine or ten, a small glass of wine over dinner, maybe a little taste of your whisky or whatever else). Educate your kids about alcohol. Don't tell them not to do it, because that will have absolutely no effect. Instead, just bring them up so that they are well aware of the concept of drinking responsibly and they'll be fine. There's no need to remove all the alcohol from your house or anything like that, it's just a case of common sense.

And it can be exactly the same with legal drugs. Common sense.


Alcohol and kids don't match to me. That the #1 mistake parents make (well not really) is not saying no. It is a big issue for a child to be drinking alcohol, it is dangerous and not classy at all. In the US you must be 21 years old and older to drink no exceptions. And when I mean remove alcohol I mean when I kid gets to a point that he is sitting on the floor drunk. No parent should allow there kid to drink alcohol, thee is not such thing as kid drinking responsibly.


The bottom line is, if your friends are drinking, and you've never had a drink before, you're gonna try it. Not knowing anything about it is not a good thing.


That's why a parent needs to say "NO!" that way when the kid does drink you can punish him/her for not following the rules, otherwise the kid will be like "but you never said drinking is a bad thing or that I couldn't do it" Be a parent not a friend.


all i can say about that is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. first of all, the same elliott said - if you tend to not let your son to do some things, he will have curiosity for it and will always be attracted to it. for example, if a young teen who always got a "no" from his parents in all matters surrounding alcohol, when he is hanging out with his friends and they are drinking, he will probably drink, and the results will be much worse than it would be if he was educated before by his parents. a similar example would be in charlie and the chocolate factory - willy wonka's dad never let him eat chocolate. one day he did and he became addicted to it, because it's something that he always had prohibited and wanted to know about.

second, educating your children about drinking alcohol doesn't mean you will let them drink all the time or something like that. for example, my parents let me drink when i'm out, but they wouldn't like it if i drank to much. so i don't. i have a lot of respect to my parents and follow they rules (almost) always. of course that there are different cases, and different people that have less control on themselves, but i think than an average person would do the same. i know my parents won't let me drink 'til i fall, so i don't. i'm not saying i haven't throw up or being drunk, but i try to not break the limit a lot.

and, finally - how can you say "be a parent, not a friend"? that's the worst thing i've ever heard concerning this stuff. if you have a distant relation with your parents, you will tend to lose respect for them and do the things they won't let you doing. i have a great relationship with my parents, i tell my mom everything i do and everything that happens to me. she knows that i smoke, drink and smoke with and she teaches me about that (she never smoke weed but knows cases and that). if you can't talk with your parents like a friend, you'll feel that you don't have the contention you need in your house, so you will try to find it in other places - for example, hanging out with people that smoke weed and you see they have a good time and doesn't feel bad at all, so you start doing it. there's a lot of errors in what you said. think about it.
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#38 Posted : 09 August 2009 12:16:37(UTC)
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forkboy wrote:

No. I'm sorry, but that's not true. Take countries like Spain & France for example. Wine is a part of their culture, and kids often drink wine in restaurants from the age of 14, when accompanied by their parents. And yet it's the UK that has the worst binge drinking problems in Europe, not the French. Kids are, more often than not, going to experiment with alcohol. That's just a fact. So we need to teach them how to drink responsibly, and how to enjoy a good wine, rather than going out and drinking 14 bottles of Bacardi Breezers, or attacking one of those cheap three litre bottles of cider with their pals in some forest.


Just because some kids do it doesn't mean everyone does it. I really don't know nor never heard that about Spain or France but if that's their culture so be it. But in he UK and the US it is not allowed. Teaching a kid how to enjoy wine is like saying teaching a baby how to run. It doesn't make sense. Kids drinking is the worst idea because they are not adults and they are childish, so drinking only makes it worse. The effect of alcohol itself is bad on adult imagine on children. Sorry but that just doesn't cut it for me.
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#39 Posted : 09 August 2009 12:22:32(UTC)
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stephaniewazhere wrote:
forkboy wrote:

No. I'm sorry, but that's not true. Take countries like Spain & France for example. Wine is a part of their culture, and kids often drink wine in restaurants from the age of 14, when accompanied by their parents. And yet it's the UK that has the worst binge drinking problems in Europe, not the French. Kids are, more often than not, going to experiment with alcohol. That's just a fact. So we need to teach them how to drink responsibly, and how to enjoy a good wine, rather than going out and drinking 14 bottles of Bacardi Breezers, or attacking one of those cheap three litre bottles of cider with their pals in some forest.


Just because some kids do it doesn't mean everyone does it. I really don't know nor never heard that about Spain or France but if that's their culture so be it. But in he UK and the US it is not allowed. Teaching a kid how to enjoy wine is like saying teaching a baby how to run. It doesn't make sense. Kids drinking is the worst idea because they are not adults and they are childish, so drinking only makes it worse. The effect of alcohol itself is bad on adult imagine on children. Sorry but that just doesn't cut it for me.


In reality, alcohol in small amounts, while still being a toxin, is not seriously harmful. Drinking alcohol in large amounts in one go (on a binge) is harmful - it can lead to health problems caused by the alcohol itself, as well as problems caused by being drunk. I'd personally rather a child had a few small amounts and learned about it (not being taught to "enjoy wine") than went out on a binge, got alcohol poisoning and their stomach pumped.
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Offline sav  
#40 Posted : 09 August 2009 12:23:27(UTC)
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stephaniewazhere wrote:
old.gregg wrote:
stephaniewazhere wrote:
That's why a parent needs to say "NO!" that way when the kid does drink you can punish him/her for not following the rules, otherwise the kid will be like "but you never said drinking is a bad thing or that I couldn't do it" Be a parent not a friend.


That works in very few cases - young teens are drawn to breaking their parents rules. If you put a ban on something that has a mystery surrounding it like alcohol, you're more or less asking for trouble in my opinion.


No! No! No! No! As a parent your duty is to set rules that will make your child stay away from any danger, and by not putting rules your kids will be more liberal and the more liberal the more trouble you will have.


my parents are way to liberal with me, but i still obey them and don't do what they won't let me do. i'm in the best school in argentina and one of the best in south america, i'm in the third year (the hardest) with great results in all my exams (well, excepting maths), and i go out almost every weekend except when i have a lot to study. i don't have any troubles with my parents, people, police, or anything. my point is - i was teached since i was a child about the problems of smoking and drinking, and all my family smokes and drinks. i smoke weed, and my parents don't prohibe it to me, but tell me it would be better if i don't do it. and, with all, i'm a great student and person, i don't get in trouble, have a great relationship with my family and i already know how i will educate my children: just how my parents did.
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